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Evolution conflict and division

Amo2

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Some articles addressing out of place fossils as it were.






 
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Job 33:6

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And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Or from your second link, a statement is made:
"However, the presence of this unique fossil can no longer be used to reliably identify a rock as Cambrian. In addition to the Ordovician anomalocaridid discovered in Morocco, a lone fossil of an obvious anomalocaridid (although it was not identified as such) was described from Devonian strata in Germany."

Likewise this is just misinformation. There isn't anything out of place about an anomalocaridid in the Devonian. It's not as though you're finding a devonian tetrapod in the Cambrian before it's ancestors. Rather the opposite is being described in which a group of animals lived beyond just the Cambrian. Which is a common occurrence in the fossil record. There isn't anything unusual about this, despite the articles claims.
 
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Amo2

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Quoted article below from link above.

 
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Amo2

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Quotes below from link above.

 
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davetaff

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Hi
why cant we jest believe God created why do we have to prove everything if we have to prove everything then we don't believe Gods word but its of the utmost importance that we believe the word of God not try to prove everything he says he is the creator of everything in heaven and earth lets jest believe that and be content.

Love and peace
Dave
 
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Job 33:6

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Amo2

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If I point out misinformation, it's not a solution to simply copy and paste more misinformation.
You simply pointing out what you profess to be misinformation, does not necessarily mean that the information actually is misinformation, either. There are a lot of people that disagree with you regarding what supposedly happened hundreds of millions of years ago. The facts are pretty plain and simple, none of us know the majority of what happened on this planet or anywhere else yesterday, let alone hundreds of millions of years ago. Such is the nature of all the theories regarding even recent history, let alone deep time scenarios. To the extent that a lot of faith is required for both sides of the issue, though only one side is usually willing to admit of such. While the other is extremely confident of their own observations, though even they themselves prove themselves wrong over and over again, in the never ending evolution of the theory of evolution. So be it.
 
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Job 33:6

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So what is your counter?

Here is what I said:
And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Is your counter to simply say, the earth is 6,000 years old, therefore all conventional science is wrong?

It's not actually true that confuciosornis predated feathered dinosaurs. Not by any measure known to any field or science. I'm pointing this out as misinformation and you're suggesting that it's not, on what grounds?
 
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Amo2

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Well yes, if the earth is thousands of years old and not hundreds of millions or billions of years old, then the theory of evolution which depends upon deep time scenarios is wrong. I do not believe evolutionists deep time scenarios at all. Apart from this though, it is still a problem for the theory of evolution when bird fossils are found with or before dinosaurs. As the processes of evolution are supposed to occur over deep time intervals.

Perhaps you have abandoned this idea for far more rapid evolution scenarios, than evolutionists once allowed for. Nevertheless -


Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

 
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Job 33:6

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But these bird fossils are not found before feathered dinosaurs, which is the point. But you can't accept that simply because you're YEC apparently.
 
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Amo2

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More seemingly out of place and time bird fossils defying dino to bird evolutionist scenarios, from an older article.


Article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

The World's Oldest Bird Fossil

Ask college freshman biology students to name the oldest bird fossil and they’ll probably say the evolutionary icon Archaeopteryx. In that case, you’d hear the wrong answer. The story of which fossil receives the prize for the oldest bird has as many twists as the story of bird evolution itself.

The tale took flight with the 1861 discovery of a lone feather in Germany’s now-famous Solnhofen limestone layers. Just two years later, British anatomist Richard Owen obtained a Solnhofen whole-body fossil with feather impressions for the British Museum. Owen clashed with Charles Darwin by saying that creature changes happen through orderly principles instead of from natural hap-penstance. Both he and Darwin agreed, though, that Archaeopteryx was the world’s oldest bird, and it kept that crown for a century.

It was discovered only two years after the publication of Darwin’s famous book On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, and Darwin promoters soon showcased Archaeopteryx as a missing link. To them it represented mostly a bird with reptilian features still remaining from its supposed evolutionary past. English writer and social commentator H. G. Wells wrote in The Science of Life, “As it is, Archaeopteryx is in its general construction a perfect link between the two great groups of birds and reptiles, though more than half-way to modern birds.”1 Headlines reinforce this same supposed link status today, even though studies continue to show Archaeopteryx was just a bird.

Despite its iconic status, this fossil’s geological position is out of sync with evolution. When we factor in the fossils found in Jurassic System rocks outside Germany, the Jurassic Solnhofen limestones place the extinct bird amidst dinosaur layers. According to an increasingly popular evolutionary tale, an unknown starting reptile evolved into dinosaurs. Then some of those dinosaurs—the theropods—later evolved into birds. Theropods and birds both have three forward-facing toes on each of their two legs, but the similarities essentially end there. Birds balance from their knees, while theropod legs swing from the hips like human legs do.

The evolutionary story assumes that natural processes adjusted all the appropriate theropod bones, muscles, and nerves into a bird system perhaps several times over the 186 million years that supposedly spanned the Triassic, Jurassic, and later Cretaceous rock systems. The total lack of an undisputed transition between hip- and knee-walkers counters the evolutionary tale. Likewise, the discovery of short-lived feather protein remnants in the original Archaeopteryx fossil counters the assumed evolutionary time.

What lower-to-upper fossil sequence would support bird evolution? It needs a reptile-dinosaur-bird sequence from the bottom-up. Ideally, the first bird should occur in Upper Cretaceous layers as the culmination of millions of years of reptilian-ancestor evolution. Instead, most theropods occur in Cretaceous layers far above Archaeopteryx’s Jurassic setting. That’s like having grandparents descend from their grandchildren. Archaeopteryx fossils are positioned too low to tell a perfect evolutionary story. But what if someone found a bona fide bird in even lower layers?

In 1983, paleontologist Sankar Chatterjee described Triassic bird fossils from west Texas. They belonged to a bird kind he named Protoavis. Talk about out of place! The Tecovas Formation from which Chatterjee’s teams collected several Protoavis fossils has an evolutionary age assignment of about 75 million years before Archaeopteryx, which is already too old to fit evolution. No wonder Chatterjee wrote, “From the beginning, Protoavis was received with much skepticism.”

Why do evolutionists treat Protoavis with skepticism? Not because of its anatomy. If anything, Protoavislooked more like modern birds than the later-buried Archaeopteryx, which lacked a large keel bone structure in the middle of its chest. Protoavis had a keel-shaped sternum and a shoulder girdle with the supracoracoideus pulley system typical of modern flyers, all integrated with its toothy mouth and bony tail. In spite of this, Chatterjee’s colleagues reject or ignore Protoavis because it doesn’t fit theropod-to-bird evolution. Chatterjee still believes that reptiles evolved into birds—he just thinks it happened much earlier than most paleontologists assert. But that’s like having great-grandparents descend from their great-grandchildren.

As of August 2019, the opening paragraph of Wikipedia’s description of Archaeopteryx says, “Older potential avialans [birds or supposed evolutionary ancestors of birds] have since been identified, including Anchiornis, Xiaotingia, and Aurornis.” The four-winged Anchiornis must have been a bird because it had feathers. And it must have been deposited only thousands, not millions, of years ago because researchers found feather proteins in it, just like they did in Archaeopteryx. All three of the bird-like fossils listed in Wikipedia predate Archaeopteryx by only 10 million supposed years. Protoavis’ 75 million years must make the website entry’s authors too uncomfortable to even mention.

Dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. The imaginary transitions wouldn’t have been able to fly or walk. How could they even survive? Archaeopteryx was not H. G. Wells’ “perfect link” at all. It had the anatomy of a walking, gliding bird with no in-between features such as pre-feathers or lizard hips. And Archaeopteryx was entombed before its supposed ancestors.

The prize for the oldest fossil bird currently belongs to the Triassic Protoavis. Its high-tech flight anatomy and its low-lying rock layer fly in the face of bird evolution’s twisted tale.
 
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Amo2

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But these bird fossils are not found before feathered dinosaurs, which is the point. But you can't accept that simply because you're YEC apparently.
So your "supposed" feathered dinosaurs are claimed to be more than 160 to 170 million years old? References or links to this "suggested" time frame would help all examine the issue deeper.
 
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Job 33:6

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So your "supposed" feathered dinosaurs are claimed to be more than 160 to 170 million years old? References or links to this "suggested" time frame would help all examine the issue deeper.

Lets review by going back over my prior post.

"This is simply misinformation (your source). For example, your first article states:

Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

Lots of feathered dinosaurs predate confuciosornis.

Examples:




"

I could probably list a couple dozen. Hence why it's obvious that you're simply peddling misinformation.

And even if we move the goalpost and discuss different birds dated to 150mya as your more recent article suggests, plenty of feathered dinosaurs predate that still.

I am not aware of any birds dated to 170mya. The article you referenced in your last post noted Baminornis - Wikipedia at 150mya.

If you had a bird dated at 170 mya, I would be surprised.

Yet your sources are way off base, acting like the fossil record is out of order due to birds found much later at 120-130mya. But that obviously doesn't make any sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of the fossil record would identify that falsehood a mile away.
 
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Amo2

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Notice the following quote from the link provided before it -



Please do supply the information about feathered dinosaurs earlier than the origin of birds suggested in the above quote. Not that I would believe either, but would like to examine the issues regarding them for myself. As I often find that what one evolutionist declares as scientifically proved ages regarding birds and other supposedly evolved creatures, is not agreed upon by others. It is not an issue of course, that I do not believe any of this imagined testimony.
 
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Job 33:6

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Yes, the claim that birds originated 170 million years ago is an inference, not based on direct fossil evidence. The oldest confirmed bird fossils, including Baminornis zhenghensis, date to around 150 million years ago. Any suggestion of earlier birds is a hypothesis drawn from phylogenetic models, not actual specimens.

Baminornis shows a combination of avian and dinosaurian traits, clawed fingers, a theropod-like pelvis, a shorter tail, and wings adapted for flight, making it a transitional, dinosaur-like bird, exactly what we would expect at this stage in evolutionary history.

Feathered theropods like Anchiornis (~163 Ma) and Pedopenna (~164 Ma) predate confirmed birds and show many bird-like traits, providing direct evidence that the lineage leading to birds existed in the Jurassic. Feathered ornithischians have also been discovered dating back to ~175 Ma.

Thus, the claim that birds existed 170 million years ago, while reasonably hypothesized, is not supported by fossil evidence. Baminornis provides clear transitional evidence connecting birds to theropod dinosaurs, supporting evolutionary theory.

And It’s speculative, but because feathers have been found in non-theropod dinosaurs prior to 175 Ma, some hypothesize that feathers may have even appeared as early as 200 Ma.
 
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Amo2

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Well of course I believe the theory of evolution is altogether an incorrect hypothesis. As well as the deep time scenarios of hundreds of millions of years. The following video addresses some apparent problems with the dino to bird scenarios which bird paleontologists have with feathered dinosaurs, which dinosaur paleontologists seem to ignore. It also discusses the age issues we are discussing, and why Creationists do not think they work out as evolutionists portray them. Considering also that the supposed hairs which dino evolutionists claim were the beginnings I guess of evolving feathers, were not. So that if the dinosaurs you are referring to just had these hairs suggested to be evolving feathers, then they would of course be no proof of actual feathers.

Per the article you provided, grouped filaments resembling supposed "primitive" feathers, are not feathers but things presumed to possibly be early evolutionary stages of feather development. Factual science is not built upon presumptions of course, that is the realm of hypothesis or theories. This is not to mention the soft tissue remains mentioned in the article, which alone is enough for me to know that these "fossils" are not at all anywhere near hundreds of millions of years old. Evolutionists may have come to accept that soft tissues last for hundreds of millions of years now, because they must accept this due to ever more evidence of the same, but this also is most obviously presumption unto support of a theory, not factual science. And then of course there is the problem of fake fossils, another topic altogether.

 
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Job 33:6

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Genuine feathers are found in dinosaurs that predate birds, consistently, in the fossil record. You keep repeating a falsehood that they are not, probably because you keep going back to sources of misinformation.

Examples of true feathered theropods that predate birds:
Anchiornis (160-165):


Pedopenna (160-165)


And before you say that true birds date back to 170mya, remember that no such fossils of birds are known to date back to that age, so that isn't a reasonable response. They may hypothetically go back that far, but to date, no one actually knows if that is true. So you can't use that as an argument.

The fossil record then goes one step further in that proto-feather filaments are found in ornothician dinosaurs (175 mya) even prior to genuine-feathers in theropod dinosaurs (165 mya). And earlier bird fossils, as you've noted in your prior post, are dated to around 150 mya.

It is simply a fact of the fossil record that true feathered dinosaurs predate birds (as observed in the photographs above). And further, the earliest birds have dinosaur traits like fingered claws and teeth.

The fossil record is like this:
- (175 mya, hypothesized as far back as 200 mya) Ornithischian dinosaurs with proto filaments.

- (165 mya) Saurischian genuine feathered theropod dinosaurs, as observed in the images above.

- (150 mya) Birds (that have dinosaur features like teeth and claws). As your source noted. Good job getting this one right.

- (130 mya) More modern birds that sometimes look similar to what is alive today.

- (80 mya) Crown group of birds that are alive today.

Obviously, feather evolution is expected to be gradual. Evolutionary models predict that early dinosaurs had simpler integumentary filaments that later diversified into complex feathers. So the fact that Ornothician dinosaurs have feathers that are “primitive” or “feather-like” is exactly what the evolutionary model expects, not a contradiction of it.

And even if we ignore primitive feathered dinosaurs, independent lines of evidence agree. Microscopic structures, pigmentation residues, and even growth patterns in fossils like Anchiornis, Sinosauropteryx, and Microraptor all indicate genuine feathers in theropods that predate birds. The simpler filaments in Kulindadromeus just extend the timeline further back.
 
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Amo2

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Even if your above assertions are true, it simply means that to date, dino fossils with presumed feathers have been found earlier than bird fossils. Which could change overnight, regarding more fossil finds. Which shows the actual flimsiness of the theory of evolution as a whole, as so much of it is completely dependent upon evolutionary definitions of the most recent fossil finds. Which fossil finds have and will no doubt continue to flip the story over again and again as newer evidence is found. How many times must the evolutionary story change, before the theory begins to be seriously questioned as any kind of actual observed and therefore factual science? Rather than just theoretical historical unobserved science? Mind you, I speak only relating to fossils, not the many other changing and morphing teachings of evolution which have occurred over time.

Apart from this is the differing opinions even of evolutionists as to what is a bird, and what is not. Even what is a feather and what is not. What advantage do you propose, a dino with undeveloped feathers and or feathers which do not equal flight, has over dino's without feathers? Since survival of the fittest is supposed to play such a crucial roll in evolution? This is not to mention the fact that these fossils may just represent some extinct creatures that actually did resemble a cross between birds and dinosaurs, rather than some missing link between dinosaurs and birds. Evolutionists continually act as though finding similarities equates to evolution, while to this date lacking countless transitional forms in the fossil record, including for this very topic of dino to bird. The few examples suggested by evolutionists do not come anywhere near representing the very huge number of changes needed in dino to bird transformation. There are no examples anywhere of anything even nearly at all, actually revealing such a transformation without huge unexplainable gaps between suggested or supposed stages, but by presumption and great faith among those who wish evolution to be true. This according the their world view, not established at all by observable, or in any way shape or form demonstrated science. Rather theoretical historical science, dealing with what cannot be observed at all.
 
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