Evolution & Biblical Inerrancy

[Hank77]

Any discussion of evolution, the Bible, and Christianity imho should include the thoughts of this man John Lennox. He has written a few books and there are several YouTube videos.

Seven Days That Divide the World

Eric Metaxas and Socrates in the City present an evening with John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, at the Union Club in New York City on January 31, 2013. Dr. Lennox explores a method for reading and interpreting the first chapters of Genesis without discounting either science or Scripture.

 

[Bradskii]

Any discussion of evolution, the Bible, and Christianity imho should include the thoughts of this man John Lennox. He has written a few books and there are several YouTube videos.

Seven Days That Divide the World

Eric Metaxas and Socrates in the City present an evening with John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, at the Union Club in New York City on January 31, 2013. Dr. Lennox explores a method for reading and interpreting the first chapters of Genesis without discounting either science or Scripture.

I'd normally dispute the suggestion that we should listen to 90 minutes of one person's views on these matters. But I must say that Lennox is woth listening to. I won't link to them but there are debates on Youtube between him and Hitchens that are worth watching. The two guys seem to have a lot of respect for each other and that's reflected in how they debate.

 

[AV1611VET]

Personally I LOVE the idea of Genesis being metaphor. In fact it is 1000X more beautiful as an allegory than read as a literal recounting. Reading it literally kind of cheapens it (IMHO).

If Genesis is an allegory ... which it isn't ... but if it was, it makes a good allegory for how scientists are following Lucifer in the rebellion.

When God created the earth, even Lucifer shouted for joy.

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Lucifer is a kind of superscientist, who knows the earth better than any man who ever lived on it, or will live on it.

But he rebelled and offered his knowledge to Eve, who accepted it.

Scientists started out giving God the credit for this and that: shouting for joy, so to speak.

But over time, pride took over and they started professing themselves to be "wise" by way of labeling themselves "Homo sapiens."

Eventually they ...

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

... and this happened:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Today, God is completely out of the picture.

They kicked Him out of our schools, and if they see even His ten commandments in public, He had better be interred on private ground, or appeals to authority will be made to have Him removed.

I could go on and on with this, showing from the book of Romans how it even lead to ... um ... justifying alternate lifestyles, but as I don't think it is an allegory in the first place, what's the use of doing so?

 

[Oneiric1975]

If Genesis is an allegory ... which it isn't ..

Thus sayeth the Lord.

. but if it was, it makes a good allegory for how scientists are following Lucifer in the rebellion.

Not too far off. The tree in Eden was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the tree of knowledge), but what it means is that once one learns what is right from wrong they are "on the hook" for doing right or taking their lumps when they do wrong.

Lucifer is a kind of superscientist,

Give it a rest.

But he rebelled and offered his knowledge to Eve, who accepted it.

The tree was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not just the tree of knowledge.

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

(Read your bible)

They kicked Him out of our schools

Just as you would have demanded had they been teaching Al'lah or Aharu Mazda.

, and if they see even His ten commandments in public, He had better be interred on private ground, or appeals to authority will be made to have Him removed.

Don't think so deeply do you? You do realize the Separation clause in the Constitution protects your particular sect as opposed to limiting it, right?

You don't have the right to force ANYONE ELSE to believe as you do but you are GUARANTEED THE RIGHT to believe as you wish.

, but as I don't think it is an allegory in the first place, what's the use of doing so?

It tells you what it means to grow up and be an adult knowing right from wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Just as you would have demanded had they been teaching Al'lah or Aharu Mazda.

Allah or Aharu Mazda didn't found this nation; nor did they adopt me as their son.

They're not welcome here.

Well ... others might fight for equal airtime for them ... but not we.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Allah or Aharu Mazda didn't found this nation; nor did they adopt me as their son.

So this is your nation as a Christian and others are only "tolerated" here under you benevolent rule?

They're not welcome here.

You might want to tell that to all the Muslim vets who fought and died for this country. But I'm sure they'd love to hear how their faith isn't welcome.

Well ... others might fight for equal airtime for them ... but not we.

I pray for the day that people like you don't feel you have some special right to this country. You are no better than the rest of us. YOU are lucky to be an American because America protects your faith...whether it deserves it or not.

 

[AV1611VET]

So this is your nation as a Christian and others are only "tolerated" here under you benevolent rule?

What!?

You might want to tell that to all the Muslim vets who fought and died for this country.

Tell them what?

That Allah didn't found this country?

They probably already know that.

But I'm sure they'd love to hear how their faith isn't welcome.

Do you know the difference between Jesus Christ and Christians? Allah and Muslims? Ahura Mazda and Zoroastrians?

If I said Charles Darwin wasn't welcome in this country, would I be saying all his ten ... okay, seven ... children aren't welcome either?

I pray for the day that people like you don't feel you have some special right to this country.

Um ...

You are no better than the rest of us.

All men are created equal.

YOU are lucky to be an American because America protects your faith...whether it deserves it or not.

I'm blessed to be an American.

And I'll reiterate: Allah and Ahura Mazda neither had a son that adopted me, founded this nation, nor in any way cares for it and protects it.

 

[Oneiric1975]

What!?Tell them what?

That Allah didn't found this country?

They probably already know that.

Do you know the difference between Jesus Christ and Christians? Allah and Muslims? Ahura Mazda and Zoroastrians?

If I said Charles Darwin wasn't welcome in this country, would I be saying all his ten ... okay, seven ... aren't welcome either?Um ...All men are created equal.I'm blessed to be an American.

And I'll reiterate: Allah and Ahura Mazda neither had a son that adopted me, founded this nation, nor in any way cares for it and protects it.

Jesus didn't found the United States. In fact it wasn't even all religious folks! The first settlements were business programs. Sure a small group who couldn't get along with anyone else in Europe set up shop here but they didn't "found" this nation.

This nation was "founded" by a very wide swath of people and our "Founding Fathers" were by and large more Deist than your version of religion.

Arguably enlightenment thinkers like Jefferson et al would have found your faith to be not quite the same as theirs.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, people kidnapped against their will and dragged over here (by god-fearing Christians no less) and who brought their religions founded this nation. In fact it is quite likely that people with heathen religions from western Africa built more of this country than your faith ever did.

 

[AV1611VET]

Jesus didn't found the United States.

You think what you want, chief, but I guarantee you:

Neither Allah nor Ahurha Mazda founded it; and they aren't welcome here.

They're lucky God didn't put them in everlasting chains of darkness, like He did some of the others.

And don't twist my words again, or I'll seriously consider reporting you.

 

[Oneiric1975]

You think what you want, chief, but I guarantee you:

You know I hate it when people say "chief". It's so patronizing.

Neither Allah nor Ahurha Mazda founded it; and they aren't welcome here.

Like I said: if you are truly brave go up to a Muslim vet who lost a limb or a buddy in one of our wars and tell them that their god isn't welcome here. (Bet you're not very brave in that way)

And don't twist my words again, or I'll seriously consider reporting you.

What did I twist?

Go ahead and report. I don't care for "threats", "chief".

 

[AV1611VET]

You know I hate it when people say "chief". It's so patronizing.

Fair enough. I'll try to remember that and respect it.

Like I said: if you are truly brave go up to a Muslim vet who lost a limb or a buddy in one of our wars and tell them that their god isn't welcome here.

I don't go around with a chip on my shoulder about other peoples' gods.

If I go up to a Muslim vet who lost a limb or a buddy in one of our wars, I'd probably salute him as a gesture of thanks, then hand him a Bible tract. I've done it before with others, and they're no exception.

(Bet you're not very brave in that way.)

If he asked me that, I'd tell him. I'd also be happy to tell him that Jesus Christ founded this nation, if that's what was warranted.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I don't go around with a chip on my shoulder about other peoples' gods.

Your words say otherwise. "Not welcome here". That's pretty intolerant.

If I go up to a Muslim vet who lost a limb or a buddy in one of our wars, I'd probably salute him as a gesture of thanks, then hand him a Bible tract.

Like I said, you probably aren't brave enough for your convictions, eh? Couldn't tell him or her that his god isn't welcome in the country he sacrificed for?

I've done it before with others, and they're no exception.If he asked me that, I'd tell him.

Let us know (from the hospital bed) when you do that. I want to hear how many stitches you had to have.

I'd also be happy to tell him that Jesus Christ founded this nation, if that's what was warranted.

Jesus didn't found America. Like I said, if you actually knew much about American history you'd know it was equal parts mammon and maybe a bit of religion.

But more interesting still is that your version of Christianity (Independent Baptist) didn't exist when this country was founded. And I doubt you'd be able to find SINGLE PURITAN who thought the Bible was originally written in Jacobean English. Not. one.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Lucifer is a kind of superscientist, who knows the earth better than any man who ever lived on it, or will live on it.

But he rebelled and offered his knowledge to Eve, who accepted it.

You make him sound like good people.