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Evolution As Science? Really...?

Nathan Poe

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RouterX said:
I always find it interesting that Christians get so bothered by the teaching of evolution. The fact is, resurrection of the body after death is denied in science class as well, but we don't have a problem with that.

Agreed. in fact, the scientific and medical communities are unaminous in the belief that when you nail someone to a cross in the middle of the desert for a few hours, jab a spear into their side, wait for them to die, and then seal them in a tomb for three days, that's more or less the end of that.

Funny how we don't see anyone putting stickers on the doors of funeral parlors.
 
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Edmond

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Loudmouth said:
Gould explained why the fossil record was lacking transitionals for speciation. This is due to the fact that speciation often occurs in small populations, so the chance of fossilization is low, as is finding this small population topographically.

It mat be helpful if you read the OP in thread.." Quote mining? No, fact finding...." Then go to the site provided and read the entire essay of Opus 200 by Gould. What you posted is only part of Gould's problem with Darwin's erromious conclusions...

Loudmouth said:
Darwin proposed a type of Punctuated Equilibrium, and gave the same reasons as Eldredge and Gould for the rarity of transtionals between species.

I think Gould would have a problem with that conclusion.....

Loudmouth said:
"Only a small portion of the world has been geologically explored. Only organic beings of certain classes can be preserved in a fossil condition, at least in any great number. Widely ranging species vary most, and varieties are often at first local, -- both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they do spread, if discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species."--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 1st Edition 1859, p.439

That is true, but the 'small part' as you call it is where the highest concentration of fossils have been found. Therfeore that could be constued as ...a little bit misleading.


Loudmouth said:
It doesn't help that you quote Gould out of context, making it seem as if he does not support the theory of evolution. It is this type of behavior that makes creationists look bad.

Not ready...Read the recommended information. That is the job description of every devout evolutionist .... to imply that creationists look bad. Its a subtle attempt at an effect called ....reverse psychology. .... :)

-----------------------------------------
 
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Edmond

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Physics_guy said:
Which of Gould's books or papers have you read? Please - I would really like to know.

Also, please tell us in your own words what Gould said about and meant by Punctuated Equilibrium? I am interested in your understanding of it.

Thanks

See thread OP..."Quote Mining? No, fact stating..." If that doesn't convince you about his position on Darwn U i doubt anything else will. I already answered question two...infact maybe this whole post. This may have been the post that encouraged me to dig that essay up from the past as a matter of fact. Thank you.... Yes, I've read quite a bit. ... :)

--------------------------------------------
 
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Dragon02

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The elevator shook as it descended through the shaft. "Ugh, 6 damn o'clock", Edmond whispered to himself. "Yeah, I can't believe I'm getting up at 5:00 to come work in the mines. But hey, I've got to make a living somehow", Joseph whispered back.

The elevator crept down the shaft... fourth level... fifth level... finally, after what seemed like ages, the elevator reached the bottom level, Level 13. Level 13 was a special level. It was called "Hell's Backdoor" by the rest of the miners, and there had been the more deaths in collapses on this one level than the entire rest of the mine put together.

Edmond didn't care. He had a wife and two small children to support. Edmond and Joseph quickly exited the elevator, and it quickly started its journey back the surface. They walked down the corridor and found the foreman.

He told them that they were working the North Shaft today. Great. Nobody liked going into the Shaft, it was cold and wet down there, with all manner of creepy bugs and rats everywhere. They both looked at the signs... South Shaft, East Shaft, North Shaft. Well, there it was.

Edmond and Joseph reached the end of the shaft after a few minutes of walking. There were a few other miners there, grumbling and groaning at their misfortune of being tasked to the inhospitable area. Well, time for work.

A few hours passed. The miners had discovered a few quotes by various famous figures. A Hitler quote, an Einstein quote, and a quote from a 5th Century Egyptian general who's name nobody could pronounce. Edmond raised his pickaxe and swung it at the hard Earth. It came off easily this time. "That's odd", Edmond thought. He swung at the area a few more times, and each time, more and more soil became dislodged. Edmond swung once more, and was greeted by golden shine created by his lantern. Something was bured in the dirt. Something valuable.

Edmond continued to work at it. It was now obvious what it was. It was a quote, by whom, Edmond did not yet know. A few more swings, and he began to see a name on the quote, however most of it was still hidden by the dirt. 'Ste---- --- --uld' it read. A few more swings of the pickaxe and the object fell out of the wall and hit the ground. Edmond picked it up and brushed off the dirt.

Edmond was immediately overjoyed. All those days in the quote mines finally payed off. It was a quote, but not just any quote, a quote by none other than STEPHEN JAY GOULD! It was not a normal quote either, it was a quote taken out of context. This quote, when viewed by someone with no prior knowledge of his beliefs, could make any ignorant person think that Stephen Jay Gould supported creationism. Edmond knew he would be rewarded for his find, and immediately ran to find the foreman. He knew he was finally going home.
 
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ebia

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RouterX said:
I always find it interesting that Christians get so bothered by the teaching of evolution. The fact is, resurrection of the body after death is denied in science class as well, but we don't have a problem with that.

The resurrection of Christ and creation are both miracles beyond our comprehension.

If someone was to come up to me and say, "Science proves that Christ could not have died and rose again." I would simply shrug that comment off. I have faith that Christ has risen.
But when someone can come along and say "Science proves that Christ not only could not have died and rose again, but that he did not, and we've got the body, the autopsy, and heaps of other records showing that it did not happen, and not one bit of evidence that it did. Then you would start to have an analogy with Creation. Creation itself says how it was created, and that story is not compatible with a literal reading of Genesis.

So, when someone comes up to a Christian and says, "Science proves that Genesis 1 is incorrect.", we need to tell them about our faith instead of attacking their science.
Quite right, because our faith is entirely compatible with science and it's findings.
 
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Edmond

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Dragon02 said:
The elevator shook as it descended through the shaft. "Ugh, 6 damn o'clock", Edmond whispered to himself. "Yeah, I can't believe I'm getting up at 5:00 to come work in the mines. But hey, I've got to make a living somehow", Joseph whispered back.

The elevator crept down the shaft... fourth level... fifth level... finally, after what seemed like ages, the elevator reached the bottom level, Level 13. Level 13 was a special level. It was called "Hell's Backdoor" by the rest of the miners, and there had been the more deaths in collapses on this one level than the entire rest of the mine put together.

Edmond didn't care. He had a wife and two small children to support. Edmond and Joseph quickly exited the elevator, and it quickly started its journey back the surface. They walked down the corridor and found the foreman.

He told them that they were working the North Shaft today. Great. Nobody liked going into the Shaft, it was cold and wet down there, with all manner of creepy bugs and rats everywhere. They both looked at the signs... South Shaft, East Shaft, North Shaft. Well, there it was.

Edmond and Joseph reached the end of the shaft after a few minutes of walking. There were a few other miners there, grumbling and groaning at their misfortune of being tasked to the inhospitable area. Well, time for work.

A few hours passed. The miners had discovered a few quotes by various famous figures. A Hitler quote, an Einstein quote, and a quote from a 5th Century Egyptian general who's name nobody could pronounce. Edmond raised his pickaxe and swung it at the hard Earth. It came off easily this time. "That's odd", Edmond thought. He swung at the area a few more times, and each time, more and more soil became dislodged. Edmond swung once more, and was greeted by golden shine created by his lantern. Something was bured in the dirt. Something valuable.

Edmond continued to work at it. It was now obvious what it was. It was a quote, by whom, Edmond did not yet know. A few more swings, and he began to see a name on the quote, however most of it was still hidden by the dirt. 'Ste---- --- --uld' it read. A few more swings of the pickaxe and the object fell out of the wall and hit the ground. Edmond picked it up and brushed off the dirt.

Edmond was immediately overjoyed. All those days in the quote mines finally payed off. It was a quote, but not just any quote, a quote by none other than STEPHEN JAY GOULD! It was not a normal quote either, it was a quote taken out of context. This quote, when viewed by someone with no prior knowledge of his beliefs, could make any ignorant person think that Stephen Jay Gould supported creationism. Edmond knew he would be rewarded for his find, and immediately ran to find the foreman. He knew he was finally going home.


When you feel you can take a break from the rhetoric 'mill' I suggest you read the full essay by Gould from the site reference given in the OP of threat..."Quote mining? No, fact stating......" It will begin to tell you about how deep an actual hole Darwin dug for himself with his assumptions about evolution. ...

-------------------------------------------------------
 
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Edmond

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RouterX said:
I always find it interesting that Christians get so bothered by the teaching of evolution. The fact is, resurrection of the body after death is denied in science class as well, but we don't have a problem with that.

The resurrection of Christ and creation are both miracles beyond our comprehension.

If someone was to come up to me and say, "Science proves that Christ could not have died and rose again." I would simply shrug that comment off. I have faith that Christ has risen. So, when someone comes up to a Christian and says, "Science proves that Genesis 1 is incorrect.", we need to tell them about our faith instead of attacking their science.

Bonhoeffer was quite clear about theologians not touching the science argument. He states, "we are stuck in the middle", between creation and the end-times. We are unable to comprehend God's creative act and should not even go there. Let's let scientists do what scientists do. They will be the first to admit when they are on the wrong track. The scientist should not affect our understanding of the miracle of Genesis just as he does not affect our understanding of the miracles of Christ.

Theologians do not make good scientists but they make excellent witnesses for Christ. During these times of debate over ID versus evolution, let's make sure we use the opportunity to witness for Christ. Isn't it a shame that Christians in North America are becoming known more for their defense of creationism than they are for their faith in Jesus Christ?

I agree that our faith, the living faith of the presence of the Spirit of Christ within, is the key to our belief. I also agree that we should not strive to defend creation entirely based on science. I do believe it is imporatnt to demonstrate that the RESULTS of the event of creation are fully compatable with true science. A concurrent sgreement should exist between that which we see in the real world and what the truth revealed about that world.

I also believe we need to, as believers, attempt to point to the fallacies in the anti-thesis of the origins of life and of mankind that evolution claims to offer. It is in such falsification that others may look to the alternative. Many people find much more 'confidence' in their interests to deny the existence of God based on the false hopes that the assumptions of evolution offer...

---------------------------------------------------
 
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Electric Sceptic

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Edmond said:
When you feel you can take a break from the rhetoric 'mill' I suggest you read the full essay by Gould from the site reference given in the OP of threat..."Quote mining? No, fact stating......" It will begin to tell you about how deep an actual hole Darwin dug for himself with his assumptions about evolution.

To correct the above post (relevant changes in bold):
Edmond said:
When you feel you can take a break from the rhetoric 'mill' I suggest you read the full essay by Gould from the site reference given in the OP of threat..."Quote mining? No, fact stating......" It will begin to tell you about how deep an actual hole I IMAGINE Darwin dug for himself with his assumptions about evolution.
 
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RouterX

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RE: Many people find much more 'confidence' in their interests to deny the existence of God based on the false hopes that the assumptions of evolution offer...

I agree. It seems that for whatever reason, evolution has become one of the criteria for whether someone converts to Christianity. Science will never account for God in the picture, so I think it's a matter of education of lost sheep instead of confrontation with science.

 
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Edx

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RouterX said:
RE: Many people find much more 'confidence' in their interests to deny the existence of God based on the false hopes that the assumptions of evolution offer...

I agree. It seems that for whatever reason, evolution has become one of the criteria for whether someone converts to Christianity. Science will never account for God in the picture, so I think it's a matter of education of lost sheep instead of confrontation with science.

Boy, do you have it backwards.
 
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Edmond

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Edx said:
Boy, do you have it backwards.

According to this response to an earlier post....Curiously, why do you view embracing evolution and denying God as not being consistant with a person's position on both subjects?

--------------------------------------------------------
 
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Dragon02

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Edmond said:
?? ....

-----------------------
Because -- For the reason that.

most -- More than 50%.

Christians -- People who practice Christianity.

accept -- Think it is the best explanation.

evolution. -- Shortened form of the Theory of Evolution.
 
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pantsman52

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Edmond said:
?? ....

-----------------------

Because Creationism is prettymuch isolated to America only, with only some fringe outposts in other nations. While theres a slight majority of Christians in the US that believe in Creationism, there is a significant amount left who accept Evolution, and then the majority of Christians outside of the US have dropped the silly concept of Creationism and accepted Evolution.
 
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RouterX

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Dragon02 said:
Because -- For the reason that.

most -- More than 50%.

Christians -- People who practice Christianity.

accept -- Think it is the best explanation.

evolution. -- Shortened form of the Theory of Evolution.

What is your source for this statistic? I'm not doubting it, but I haven't bumped into a stat on % of Christians believing in Creation/Evolution so I'm just wondering.
 
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Elduran

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RouterX said:
What is your source for this statistic? I'm not doubting it, but I haven't bumped into a stat on % of Christians believing in Creation/Evolution so I'm just wondering.
Probably the fact that in worldwide terms only america seems to have a creationist group that is big enough to notice. The rest of the world seems to think creationism went the way of flat earth-ism centuries ago
 
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