Evolution and Religion

[Troof]

I have recently become convinced that it is completely illogical to believe in a God (or Gods) and accept that evolution is true.

I know that many Christians (and advocates of other religions) accept that evolution is true, but I cannot understand how they manage to do this.

It seems to me that the only way to be both Christian and to accept evolution is to only believe bits of the Christian faith, and/or only accept part of the evolutionary explanation of life on earth.

Can any Christians persuade me that they fully accept the evolutionary explanation of life on earth and still believe in God?

 

[notto]

The theory of evolution simply explains what we know about the diversity of life and how the creation works. It doesn't address the whole of creation but only a part of it. Just like geology, physics, meteorology or any of the other sciences, it describes reality.

It doesn't say that there is not God and it doesn't touch the core Christian faith with is the acceptance of Christ.

What belief that is central to Christian theology do you think it conflicts with? What is the source of your understanding of this belief and why it is central to being a Christian?

Isn't being a Christian about Christ? Evolution says nothing about Christ.

Only a limited interpretation of the bible and what it means to be Christian and denial of what we find in creation can lead to the false conclusion that one cannot accept valid and accepted science and be a Christian. Doing so is both bad theology and bad science.

 

[Tomk80]

I have recently become convinced that it is completely illogical to believe in a God (or Gods) and accept that evolution is true.

I know that many Christians (and advocates of other religions) accept that evolution is true, but I cannot understand how they manage to do this.

It seems to me that the only way to be both Christian and to accept evolution is to only believe bits of the Christian faith, and/or only accept part of the evolutionary explanation of life on earth.

Can any Christians persuade me that they fully accept the evolutionary explanation of life on earth and still believe in God?

But why do you think what you think? That would be interesting to hear.

 

[Troof]

The theory of evolution simply explains what we know about the diversity of life and how the creation works. It doesn't address the whole of creation but only a part of it. Just like geology, physics, meteorology or any of the other sciences, it describes reality.

It doesn't say that there is not God and it doesn't touch the core Christian faith with is the acceptance of Christ.

What belief that is central to Christian theology do you think it conflicts with? What is the source of your understanding of this belief and why it is central to being a Christian?

Isn't being a Christian about Christ? Evolution says nothing about Christ.

Only a limited interpretation of the bible and what it means to be Christian and denial of what we find in creation can lead to the false conclusion that one cannot accept valid and accepted science and be a Christian. Doing so is both bad theology and bad science.

Well thanks for the reply, but I'm not sure you answered the question.

You say that Evolution says nothing about Christ. This is true up to a point, but if evolution is true it has great implications for Christianity and Christ.
Most of all acceptance of evolution in full means acceptance that there is no spiritual element to a living being. Surely Christianity is based on the idea that there is a spiritual element to human life and that this "lives" on after physical death.

 

[Troof]

But why do you think what you think? That would be interesting to hear.

I would love to explain in full, but it would take several hundred pages or more.

I'm interested in whether Christians accept evolution in full and Christianity in full. I dont think you can do both, but you can accept bits of each without contradiction.

 

[notto]

Most of all acceptance of evolution in full means acceptance that there is no spiritual element to a living being.

What biology book did you read this in? I must have missed that part.

 

[coyoteBR]

I do not see any contradiction.

I accept evolution, same way I accept gravity, astrology, quantum physics.

And I see God as The Primary Cause of all things. Inclusive the mentioned above. He Create and Sets the Rules. He Gaves the Condition to things to happen, to start to move.

Imagine a big company, with factories everywhere, and hundreds of products in production.
The company CEO started it, let's say, 30 years ago, on his backyard.
Today, is not the CEO who personally sweeps the floor, it's not him who personally produces every product, nor drive the trucks, nor takes care of the everyday sales numbers.
But everything on that company exists, in last analisys, because he started the business, years ago.

More or less the same with God and evolution.

 

[Troof]

I didn't read it in a book. If I had I would necessarily believe it was true. Many things (true and false) are written in books.

The fact that there is no spiritual element to life is self evident from an understanding of evolution of all life on earth from the basic chemical elements of which the earth is composed.

 

[notto]

The fact that there is no spiritual element to life is self evident from an understanding of evolution of all life on earth from the basic chemical elements of which the earth is composed.

No its not. This is simply an assertion made by you. I disagree and don't accept your assertion just as I'm sure you don't accept mine.

But do not be confused, the theory of evolution neither confirms nor falsifies either of our conclusions.

 

[Troof]

I do not see any contradiction.

I accept evolution, same way I accept gravity, astrology, quantum physics.

And I see God as The Primary Cause of all things. Inclusive the mentioned above. He Create and Sets the Rules. He Gaves the Condition to things to happen, to start to move.

Imagine a big company, with factories everywhere, and hundreds of products in production.
The company CEO started it, let's say, 30 years ago, on his backyard.
Today, is not the CEO who personally sweeps the floor, it's not him who personally produces every product, nor drive the trucks, nor takes care of the everyday sales numbers.
But everything on that company exists, in last analisys, because he started the business, years ago.

More or less the same with God and evolution.

So God create all the matter in the universe and set the physical and chemical laws by which it would interact and the sat back for billions of years and did nothing until 2000 years ago when he decided that on type of creature on one little planet needed to believe in him so he intervened and gave us Christ.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Troof]

No its not. This is simply an assertion made by you. I disagree and don't accept your assertion just as I'm sure you don't accept mine.

But do not be confused, the theory of evolution neither confirms nor falsifies either of our conclusions.

Can you explain how life evolving from simple chemical elements acquires a spiritual element?

Do you agree that simple chemical elements do not have a spiritual component?

 

[notto]

Can you explain how life evolving from simple chemical elements acquires a spiritual element?

God.

Do you agree that simple chemical elements do not have a spiritual component?

Not a measurable one but then science doesn't have a way to measure the supernatural or spiritual.

We cannot conclude that simply chemical elements have a spiritual component but you are asserting much more.

You're making assertions outside the realm of science just as I am.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that evolution confirms your conclusions.

 

[Troof]

If I had I would necessarily believe it was true.

That should read If I had I would NOT necessarily believe it was true.

 

[stumpjumper]

Well thanks for the reply, but I'm not sure you answered the question.

You say that Evolution says nothing about Christ. This is true up to a point, but if evolution is true it has great implications for Christianity and Christ.
Most of all acceptance of evolution in full means acceptance that there is no spiritual element to a living being. Surely Christianity is based on the idea that there is a spiritual element to human life and that this "lives" on after physical death.

Not true. Spirit and matter are very finely intertwined and you most certainly can have a spiritual element that lives on after death if that is the case. Remember, Christians believe in a "material resurrection" or a resurrection in the flesh. Not the same body and parts but composed of matter nonetheless.

Look up Panspychism:
http://www.integralworld.net/smith16.html

Bah. It appears that link is now dead. Must update my bookmarks but here is a resource for articles about consciousness: http://consc.net/online.html

David Chalmers speculates that some form of panspychism is neccesary to solve the hard problem of consciousness.

 

[Troof]

God.


Not a measurable one but then science doesn't have a way to measure the supernatural or spiritual.

We cannot conclude that simply chemical elements have a spiritual component but you are asserting much more.

You're making assertions outside the realm of science just as I am.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that evolution confirms your conclusions.

So at some point God intervenes and gives life a spiritual element? When?

 

[Troof]

Not true. Spirit and matter are very finely intertwined and you most certainly can have a spiritual element that lives on after death if that is the case. Remember, Christians believe in a "material resurrection" or a resurrection in the flesh. Not the same body and parts but composed of matter nonetheless.

Look up Panspychism:
http://www.integralworld.net/smith16.html

Bah. It appears that link is now dead. Must update my bookmarks but here is a resource for articles about consciousness: http://consc.net/online.html

David Chalmers speculates that some form of panspychism is neccesary to solve the hard problem of consciousness.

If spirit and matter are intertwined as you say then all matter has a spiritual element. An atom of Carbon, a proton, a quark do they all have a spiritual component?

Is this what you believe?

 

[stumpjumper]

I have recently become convinced that it is completely illogical to believe in a God (or Gods) and accept that evolution is true.

Read my work in progress wiki on TE: http://www.christianforums.com/t2669405-wiki-theistic-evolution.html

The first external link has some good info too.

 

[notto]

Based on the history of the OP poster, I'm not going to continue participating in this thread.

It is basically a repeat and it seems that the person posting in the OP will not listen anyway.

You can review this question being answered for Troof in a dozen different ways here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2427229-prove-evolution-possible.html

Troof will not accept any answer as valid and will continue to argue through assertion.

 

[stumpjumper]

If spirit and matter are intertwined as you say then all matter has a spiritual element. An atom of Carbon, a proton, a quark do they all have a spiritual component?

Is this what you believe?

Yes.

In varying degrees, though, as all matter is enveloped in the body of God in panentheism or omnipresence but not all matter can respond to God with a will of their own.

 

[Troof]

David Chalmers speculates that some form of panspychism is neccesary to solve the hard problem of consciousness.

Consciousness is indeed a hard thing to explain, but just a few decades ago man could not explain how heredity was possible. Why invoke "spirit" to explain something lets just do the science and find out how beings become conscious.