Evolution and God

[Roscoe1989]

Aww... I was enjoying this chat! I hope you're still there! I'm bored now!

 

[Targ]

This is what I can't stand. "God did it. Case closed." science is not about being stuck in one viewpoint, it's about adapting our views in light of the new scientific discoveries made every day! Whereas religion is about blindly turning away from said discoveries by simply saying, "If it looks like something other than what the bible says, then that is only because god made it that way." How can you have a debate with someone who does not understand the fundamental purpose of a debate, being a process of sharing respective views to see who's logic is more identifiable. Fundamentalist Christians disregard logic.

Consol?

 

[Roscoe1989]

Consol...?

 

[AV1611VET]

Consol...?

1

 

[Roscoe1989]

I'm not familiar with the term Consol? What you guys mean?

 

[Gracchus]

I'm not familiar with the term Consol? What you guys mean?

Someone used to post here under the name "Consol". His posts were usually very poorly reasoned. What made him stand out was that he generally posted against religion and creationism.

Some folks became obsessed with him, and now see him anywhere and everywhere. So, instead of addressing the content or reasoning in a post by some unfamiliar member, they just accuse the poster of being Consol.

 

[plindboe]

Someone used to post here under the name "Consol". His posts were usually very poorly reasoned. What made him stand out was that he generally posted against religion and creationism.

Some folks became obsessed with him, and now see him anywhere and everywhere. So, instead of addressing the content or reasoning in a post by some unfamiliar member, they just accuse the poster of being Consol.

Indeed, people are a bit too zealous with the consol-labelling due to consol's countless sockpuppets, but he is still around and his writing style is apparent so the accusations are sometimes valid. Still, Roscoe is not consol. The writing and communication style isn't the same.

Peter

 

[AV1611VET]

Indeed, people are a bit too zealous with the consol-labelling due to consol's countless sockpuppets, but he is still around and his writing style is apparent so the accusations are sometimes valid. Still, Roscoe is not consol. The writing and communication style isn't the same.

Peter

Same spirit though.

 

[Lillen]

Shouldn't we have an embassy for dogs... I cant help myself thinking that dogs are just as human as any other human... they are atleast counted as sinners in the book of revelation... "outside are the dogs..." and if sinners they can repent.

 

[AV1611VET]

Shouldn't we have an embassy for dogs... I cant help myself thinking that dogs are just as human as any other human...

According to evolutionary philosophy, the apes already have taken that distinction, with porpoises taking honorable mention.

 

[Roscoe1989]

Haha I gotcha... But no, I'm not Consol! Funny idea though

Anyway, I'm not intending to be antagonistic or anything, honestly I just find it an interesting conversation! And if you are honest, I would like to know what I said that you think is unreasonable?

 

[lucaspa]

Did God create other Human Species besides us. I'm talking about Homosapiens.

Homo sapiens is a single species. There are no other examples of H. sapiens in the fossil record except from 100,000 years ago to today.

Now, there are other species of Homo. We, H. sapiens, are the sole surviving species of a genus that had, at one time, at least 6 species: H. habilis, H. rudolfensis, H. ergastor (our immediate ancestor), H. neandertal, H. erectus, and H. floriensis. There may also have been H. pekiensis and H. antecessori.

Our evolution is like all lineages -- a branching bush. A afarensis appears to be our great-great grandparent. But there were at least 4 species of Australopithecine. A. afarensis evolved to H. habilis. H. habilis gave rise to H. rudolfensis and H. ergastor -- both in Africa. H. ergastor gave rise to H. neandertals in Europe and H. erectus in Asia (and possibly H. pekiensis in China). H. erectus evolved to H. floriensis. H. ergastor evolved to H. sapiens in Africa.

Is that clearer?

 

[lucaspa]

This is what I can't stand. "God did it. Case closed."

That's not exactly the position of creationism. Saying "God did it" doesn't tell you anything. What you have to specify is how God did it. Creationism has God directly creating H. sapiens in our present form. There was no H. sapiens and then POOF, there was. If anything, the "case closed" comes from insisting on a literal reading of the Bible. It's "The Bible says so, case closed."

Whereas religion is about blindly turning away from said discoveries by simply saying, "If it looks like something other than what the bible says, then that is only because god made it that way."

That's creationism, not religion. Remember, the people who first showed that the earth was not young, then showed that there was no global flood, and then showed that special creation was wrong were all Christians. Particularly in the period 1700 - 1900, all scientists were also religious and they thought they were figuring out how God created. That's how Darwin viewed evolution.

Now, the idea that "is only because god made it that way" was rejected by religion in 1857. It's now used by Fundamentalists (who worship the Bible) as a last ditch stand to deny that God is falsifying their literal interpretation of Genesis 6-8.

How can you have a debate with someone who does not understand the fundamental purpose of a debate, being a process of sharing respective views to see who's logic is more identifiable.

That's not debate. A debate is a sport whose object is to argue most effectively for your position and never admit that the other team's logic, evidence, and reason are superior. A judge(s) decide who "won" a debate, but it is not about "sharing" views, but sticking to the position you are given in the debate no matter what.

Fundamentalist Christians disregard logic.

Here you acknowledge that your previous use of "religion" was too broad. Now you are focussing in on one religion -- Fundamentalism. I will argue that Fundamentalism is not Christian, so "Fundamentalist Christianity" is an oxymoron.

And, of course, Fundies disregard logic. They have to. Why? Because creationism and a literal Bible have been repeatedly falsified. In the face of contrary evidence, you can't use logic.

 

[lucaspa]

Shouldn't we have an embassy for dogs... I cant help myself thinking that dogs are just as human as any other human...

You haven't noticed the major differences, both physically and mentally, between dogs and humans? Not only are dogs not in our species, they are not even in the same Order as humans.

The great apes are at least in the same Family. If it wasn't for anthrocentrism, some of the great apes might even be considered in the same genus as H. sapiens.

And AV, apes are not considered "human" by evolutionary biology. Neither are dolphins or porpoises. Rather, the great apes have shown to be the closest to humans in mental ability. They may be sentient. So may dolphins or porpoises, but that is more difficult to tell because of the greater difficulty in performing the required testing on creatures that live solely in the water.

 

[lucaspa]

According to evolutionary philosophy,

What's "evolutionary philosophy"?

 

[lucaspa]

There is no evidence that yeshua, or Jesus as he is mistakenly known, even ever existed. Not one shred.

That is mistaken. There is evidence that Yeshu, or Yehoshua, existed. Remember, you said that the person Yeshu existed, not whether Yeshu was divine.

The following is mostly drawn from R Joseph Hoffman, Jesus Outside the Gospels, 1984. Hoffman looks at ALL references to Yeshu ben Joseph, including Josephus and the Midrash -- collections of JEWISH writings contemporary with the Gospels and a bit earlier.

1. Josephus has 2 references to Yeshu ben Joseph. Neither, in orginial form, substantiate any claims to deity, but both indicate that yes,indeed, he was a historical person. In particular, you need to look at Antiquities XX, Chapter IX. Most people who deny a historical Jesus look only at the Testimonium Flavium and ignore this other reference in Josephus.
2. The Midrash does NOT deny Yeshu existed. To Hoffman amd me, that is significant. The easiest way for the Jews to get rid of the early Christian community would be simply to say Yeshu ben Joseph never existed. Yet they never tried that tactic.
3. Seutonius and one other Roman mention Yeshu. Again, for the Romans trying to get rid of Christianity, simply showing Yeshu did not exist would be the simplest and most effective means. And these references are prior to 70 AD, so the Roman records were intact. Why not simply say that there were no records of Yeshu and thus crush the new cult?

Comparing the Midrash to the Gospels, these points about Yeshu's life are in common:
1. He existed.
2. His mother was Mirriam (Mary).
3. No one knows who the father was. The Jews think Mirriam had out of wedlock sex, but there are conflicting stories about with whom. The Jews occasionally reffered to Yeshu as Yeshu (or Yehoshua) ben stada, or Yeshu son of she who has gone astray.
4. He lived in Galilee.
5. He preached.
6. He performed "miracles". The Jews attribute the miracles not to yhwh or divinity on the part of Yeshu, but on an alleged pact with the "Ineffable One". However, they never deny the "miracles" themselves.
7. He was executed. The Jews say they executed Yeshu for apostasy by stoning, and then hung the body on a tree.
8. No one could find the body afterwards. The Jews say the disciples stole it. But again, the easiest and quickest way to stop the Jesus cult would have been to produce a body.