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A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)I agree - the biblical flood could only have been local. Try telling that to the biblical literalists on these forums...
A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)
that way everyone's correct
well, this would be a synthesis of sources into a single narrative, not a political compromiseA good compromise leaves everyone mad.
Correct until you need to explain the Ark ending up on the mountains of Ararat. Mountains covered by water in a flood? Hills maybe, but mountains definitely not.A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)
that way everyone's correct
It was unambiguously a unique event, yes?
The Iraqis have remembered it for 5000 years as a once-in-5000-years-and-counting event, yes?
One can't have it both ways, claiming it was big enough to generate its own mythology but somehow ordinary and run-of-the-mill.
It was a freak event. Maybe natural, maybe supernaturally augmented.
Reportedly forecasted & observed, and exploited for heavenly purposes upon this planet
Although it wouldn't satisfy those who believe the story of Noah really happened...A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)
that way everyone's correct
foothills?Correct until you need to explain the Ark ending up on the mountains of Ararat. Mountains covered by water in a flood? Hills maybe, but mountains definitely not.
The hebrew הָרֵי means mountain, not foothill.foothills?
If it was a flood, eventually the water would drain SE towards the Persian Gulf, yes?
So, the craft drifting north-ish-wards (NE according to the Sumerians? NW according to the Bible?) suggests a reasonably strong southerly wind...
in turn consistent with an Asian summer monsoon season
More outlandishly, some sort of tsunami propagating NE up the Persian Gulf, and carrying everything NE as far as the foothills of Ararat ???
I understand that archeologists have excavated what they claim represents continuous habitation from the 4th into the 3rd millennia BC, straight through, although -- corresponding with the Piora Oscillation wet period -- there was a marked shift in material remains, suggesting a collapse or contraction of trade, circa 3200-2900 BC
Of course, there was one site with an obvious thick flood deposit layer... and we wouldn't know about any sites actually wiped off the face of the map... would seem that there were some survivors who lived to remember and tell the tale...
and some individual, who at some point, loaded all his livestock on some sort of barge, evidently sturdy & stable, and literally rode out the flood
---
maybe IDK how floods work
certainly (?) when the waters finally drained away, the flow would have been general SE towards the Persian Gulf...
perhaps implying that when the waters were rising the flow was generally NW, towards the (foothills of) the mountains of Ararat?
Strong's Hebrew: 2022. הָר (har) -- mountain, hill, hill countryThe hebrew הָרֵי means mountain, not foothill.
Indeed, but overwhelming majority is mountain and that includes the entries for Genesis 8:4 & 5. Thank you for providing that supportStrong's Hebrew: 2022. הָר (har) -- mountain, hill, hill country
anything from mount to hill to mountain
A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)
that way everyone's correct
foothills?
If it was a flood, eventually the water would drain SE towards the Persian Gulf, yes?
So, the craft drifting north-ish-wards (NE according to the Sumerians? NW according to the Bible?) suggests a reasonably strong southerly wind...
in turn consistent with an Asian summer monsoon season
More outlandishly, some sort of tsunami propagating NE up the Persian Gulf, and carrying everything NE as far as the foothills of Ararat ???
I understand that archeologists have excavated what they claim represents continuous habitation from the 4th into the 3rd millennia BC, straight through, although -- corresponding with the Piora Oscillation wet period -- there was a marked shift in material remains, suggesting a collapse or contraction of trade, circa 3200-2900 BC
Of course, there was one site with an obvious thick flood deposit layer... and we wouldn't know about any sites actually wiped off the face of the map... would seem that there were some survivors who lived to remember and tell the tale...
and some individual, who at some point, loaded all his livestock on some sort of barge, evidently sturdy & stable, and literally rode out the flood
---
maybe IDK how floods work
certainly (?) when the waters finally drained away, the flow would have been general SE towards the Persian Gulf...
perhaps implying that when the waters were rising the flow was generally NW, towards the (foothills of) the mountains of Ararat?
think the text says "mountains of", as in somewhere in the same mountain rangeUnfortunately, Mt Ararat is on the Armenian Highlands, so the water has to get to 1500 to 2000 meters deep to even get close to Mt Ararat.
you're assuming you know the mind of God in heavenPerhaps.
But then, a book inspired by a deity that knows literally EVERYTHING would have said so, rather than saying that the entire world was under water when it was not the case.
Ah, the old standard disclaimer, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways). I thought it was going extinct, but it still turns up now and then to explain the inexplicable....you're assuming you know the mind of God in heaven
you're assuming that God would want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in a modern 21st century western way
all we have been told is that God in heaven works through human agents on earth, evidently the way the flood story has come down to us represents some best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes...
think the text says "mountains of", as in somewhere in the same mountain range
you're assuming you know the mind of God in heaven
you're assuming that God would want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in a modern 21st century western way
all we have been told is that God in heaven works through human agents on earth, evidently the way the flood story has come down to us represents some best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes
fact remains, there's a report of a super massive flood, right in the time and place, where archeology reveals a sudden cultural contraction, and geology reveals a wet period that raised the water level in the dead sea +100m
we shouldn't be "penny wise but pound foolish"
something big happened, and "90 cents on the dollar" ain't bad for an "intelligence report" 5000 years old
I predict that a detailed map of the surviving archeology sites could define where and how high the waters reached
huh?Well then, he sure seems to be telling the truth in a way that fits exactly with what we'd expect the people of that time to have written if they had no divine knowledge whatsoever.
againSo the best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes is exactly what we'd expect the people of the time to have written if they were just trying to explain things they couldn't possibly understand?
how many other flood mythsYes, there have been lots of floods. Doesn't mean the story of Noah is true.
all of the "Noah / Utnapishtim / Atrahasis" mythic memories have the "hero" run aground far to the north, yes?Would you like to explain to me how the Biblical flood account is 90% accurate then? Do you think that the flood waters need to have reach Mt Ararat for the accounts to be 90% accurate?
huh?
There would have been no flood myth... if "Noah / Atrahasis / Utnapishtim" hadn't built a barge... according to Divine Commands to him from heaven
please acknowledge?
again
This is not about a flood
- God in heaven told "Noah" to build a barge
- so "Noah" built a barge
- super-flood
- "Noah" and his barge wound up running aground far to the north in the northern mountain foothills
- every survivor around amazed at the miracle
- they all recounted the miracle for thousands of years
It's about God in heaven communicating to "Noah" (about a then-coming flood)
we have to keep our eyes on the ball
how many other flood myths
- involve communications from heavenly powers
?
- accurately date the flood to a time corresponding to archeology (Jemdet Nasr period) & geology (Piora Oscillation)
well, then, that's the surviving eye-witness testimony evidence -- "Noah" built his barge somewhere in the south, and wound up far to the north
Flood waters are not perfectly horizontal & level -- hence they are actually flowing back out to sea, but slowly
Noah could have wound up at +200m without worldwide sea levels being +200m, the water might have actually been say +10m above local ground level all the way up slope from the Persian gulf to the foothills of the northern mountains -- the water would have been "backed up" because torrential monsoon like rains were inputting more water faster than it could drain out to sea
any super-flood transporting a barge-like craft from near the Persian gulf towards the northern mountains qualifies as "accurate in the main" to my mind, yes
View attachment 265601
Archeological evidence of massive flood deposit at Shuruppak [1-2], at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period c.30th century BC (start of both arrows).
Shuruppak was home (in local Sumerian memory) of Utnapishtim, prince of Shuruppak (son of the last king, Ubara-Tutu, son of Enmendurana = Enoch), who was instructed by the god Ea (Yah) to build a barge ("the preserver of life") and surviving two weeks on the open flood waters before running aground on an isolated hillock (according to one interpretation [3-4], thin wavy arrow)
perfectly plausible, major floods take weeks to subside
First city to recover afterwards was Kish (orange circle [5-6])
The circles representing Jemdet Nasr cities are about 20 miles across, and you can only see 2-3 miles at sea. Thus you can see, that "Noah" was essentially on the open ocean -- the Persian Gulf briefly doubled in size, and "Noah" never saw a hint of a whiff of land for weeks.
His world was completely underwater. The descriptions are accurate, but taken out of context if construed to mean the whole global surface of earth.
archeological continuity at other sites might mean that (say) the central tell mound was least affected, and renovated afterwards, but all outlying districts (invisible to archaeology) were in fact wiped out?
The Biblical story ONLY makes sense if it was indeed a truly global flood
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