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Evidences for evolution

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Ray K, Apr 10, 2002.

  1. mac_philo

    mac_philo Veteran

    +4
    Atheist
    This is easily one of the top three misconceptions that creationists have about evolution.

    Of all the biologists in academia, almost all subscribe to evolution. Of all of them, perhaps one half of one percent research the 'origins of life.' We are quite a ways away from answering that problem.

    Evolutionary theory adresses change over time. How and why did ants evolve nonreproductive casts? How did reptilian jawbones become exapted into part of the human auditory system? *Not*, how did life originate?

    That's just not what evolutionary theory is. Whatever you're arguing against, it isn't what the people who have PHDs and work at Universities are doing.
     
  2. Profugus

    Profugus Servant of the Lord

    34
    +0
    "Then the Lord said to the serpent:
    'Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures,
    On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of you life.' [...] " - Genesis 3:14 (NAS)


    I believe that Evolution is just a word to describe the unseen force which governs and maintains our universe.
    In other words: Evolution is the hand of God improving his beloved creation.
    Think of it this way: If your are an artist and draw a beautiful picture in black and white but later decide that it would look much better in color, are you not at liberty to add in color since you are it's creator?
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,770
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Catchup,

    Let me explain my position on this.

    I am going to start off with a question. Is the Bible straight forward and direct, with no chance of misinterpretations?

    John
     
  4. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,770
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Even though I was asking A Christian what his deffinition of a theory is, because he keeps all-capping the word, for one reason or another, you have not adequetly defined what a scientific theory is, how it is arrived at or what the confidence level is, regardless of your cut & paste from another website. But, I admire your effort. :)

    John
     
  5. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,770
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    First of all, let me just state, long, loud and clear, that I believe in God Almighty, who created heaven and earth. I believe that man is eternally seperated from God by sin, I believe that God came to earth in the form of a man, Jesus Christ, to redeem all who accept His gift of Salvation. I belive that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man can go to God, the Father, except through Jesus Christ. I believe that the reward for believers, is eternal life with God. I believe that the reward for non-believers is spiritual death, an eternal separation from God.

    My faith in the above is unshakable.


    That being said, I see absolutely nothing in scripture, that tells me not to use my God-given brain, to search for answers that lie outside the scope of Biblical teachings. I don't consult scripture to work on my car. I don't consult scripture to get cooking recipies. I don't consult scripture to use the internet. I don't consult scripture to use my brain for many things that lie outside the scope of Biblical teachings. Is microbiology usefull for the betterment of mankind? You bet it is. Does the Bible address that subject? Absolutely not. Does this mean we are to scrap all medical advancements, that improve and prolong lives, just because it is not wrapped up in some theological doctrine, written in scripture? Of course not. Does the Bible address magnetism, radio waves, gravity, geology, medicine, computer science, aerodynamics, hydrofoils, mathematics, televisions, the combustion engine, indoor plumbing, or electric guitars?

    Think about what I am saying. Try to separate Biblical teachings and faiths, from 'outside studies'.


    John
     
  6. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,770
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Praise be to God! :clap: Thank's, Bro.

    John
     
  7. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    The complication seems to be that the Bible does have a teaching involving the begining of the world, and it is rather tightly wound up with the introduction of sin and the basis for the whole rest of the moral teachings of the Bible.

    I bring this up because I think if you understood the underlying forces that drive the debate you would adress the things about it that matter. I don't have a particular problem with people who believe in evolution, but there is a conflict here. Obviously believing in evolution doesn't send one packing off to hell, but I just never get the feeling like you have even an idea of what drives people to doubt the evolutionary story.

    We all just talk around and around and don't get anywhere.
     
  8. ThienAn

    ThienAn Bench Press THIS!

    547
    +1
    Christian
    Yeah, God could do anything that He wants. But your statement presumes that God had a second thought about His creations, or He changed His mind - and that, I think, is a false statement; unless you can show me some scriptures.

    I think everything that God has created were and are perfect, and is exactly the way He wanted. If evolution came from God, then it exists not because God had a second thought or He changed His mind.

    I, the Lord do not change.Malachi 3:6a



    If I'm wrong, show me the scriptures.
     
  9. mom2"angels"

    mom2"angels" New Member

    5
    +0
    First of all, let me say the variations within each own species and survival of the fittest where that is concerned can definately be observed in the world around us. There is no dispute on that.
    Now evolution... that's a bit of a strecth don't you think?

    The dating methods used on the fossil record are inaccurate. In order to get a correct reading there MUST NOT be any contaminents in the sample. (this isn't even possible.) Also, if you used different methods of dating on the same sample you would get different ages for that sample often enough to cast serious doubt on the validity of the methods. Look it up if you don't believe me.

    The great catastrophe of The Flood caused the layers to form the way they did.

    Secondly, explain why a certain plant bears seeds and only one kind of bird eats those seeds and through their digestion process is the only way the seeds are able to germinate and reproduce. How can a plant like that grow if there is no bird to help it? What would be the advantage of evolving that charactoristic?

    Or a bumble bee, who by all scientific measurements should not be able to fly because of the aerodynamics and weight of his body.

    Again look it up.

    I could go on naming species who have disadvantages to their environment that have been around forever. Wouldn't these creatures have been wiped out or changed into something better evolved for the environment?

    Or ape's, if ape's evolved into humans they shouldn't be around anymore right? Either that, or they should still be evolving as we speak. We should be able to witness the missing links before our very eyes!

    If creatures have been evolving for millions of years they would each be evolving at different rates and times. Don't you think that within the last 2000 years SOMEONE would have seen one link species? But they haven't, because species only change in and of themselves.
    (& don't say the duck billed platypus. He is his own type of guy and I think God threw him in there just for fun, because God is like that!)

    Notice the vast diversity of creatures all working together as ecosystem upon ecosystem. Without one species contribution a whole ecosystem could be wiped out and so on. You know as well as I do that that IS A FACT. How could all of these creatures have developed in succession?

    Finally, take one good look around you. Notice the intricacies of each object or person or animal or mountain or ocean. Think about your brain and body and all the processes that have to happen exactly right for you to even be able to read this or type or breathe!

    Also, I am a Biology major. Feel free to look these things up. I have not been corrupted by the theory of evolution that my classes have been passing off as fact. What I've learned has only made my belief in Creation that much stronger. I look around, and to me there is no way that this universe JUST HAPPENED to plop out of the sky and JUST HAPPEND to create the right mixture of elements to host life. And then, JUST HAPPEND to start creating cells and then multi-celled creatures and then JUST HAPPEND to go on slowly to create what is all around us in all the magnificence that God made it. (Which by the way is nothing compared to its condition before The Flood.) I haven't even mentioned the stars and celestial bodies that JUST HAPPEN to rotate on schedule and JUST HAPPENED to be placed at the right proximity to each other and JUST HAPPEN to have the right weight and gravitational pull.

    Do you really think that your mind, that is deep enough to understand and comprehend and even contemplate the question you are posing JUST HAPPEND??!!??!!

    I think thats A LOT harder to believe than the idea that God created everything! None of us will know for sure until Jesus comes for us and sits us down at the banquet table. Maybe when we get there, we will find out that everyone was a little off. God created science and the laws that are set up in our universe. But the laws are specific to our universe and God can not be defined by science or anything else He created. How can we know the Awesome ways of God?
    All I know is that He was involved.

    P.S. Snakes used to have legs at one time if you read The Bible. They were cursed to slither around on the earth. I guess that would explain the pelvis right?

    Praise God for His brilliance! Praise God for He is worthy of our praise!
     
  10. Ray K

    Ray K Cogito ergo sum

    885
    +4
    Originally posted by mom2"angels"
    First of all, let me say the variations within each own species and survival of the fittest where that is concerned can definately be observed in the world around us. There is no dispute on that.
    Now evolution... that's a bit of a strecth don't you think?


    OK, so "variations" and "survival of the fittest" are indisputable, but "evolution" is a stretch?

    HUH?

    The dating methods used on the fossil record are inaccurate. In order to get a correct reading there MUST NOT be any contaminents in the sample. (this isn't even possible.) Also, if you used different methods of dating on the same sample you would get different ages for that sample often enough to cast serious doubt on the validity of the methods. Look it up if you don't believe me.


    Of course they are inaccurate. There is a known margin of error in all dating techniques, and they are not all susceptible to contaminents. But when different techniques all result in the same date, confidence in the techniques increase. And when samples from the same strata in different parts of the world date to the same period, confidence in the techniques increase.

    No one is saying we know EXACTLY when every fossil was laid down. But we might say 125 million years, give or take 10 million years. A known margin of error does not invalidate a technique.

    The great catastrophe of The Flood caused the layers to form the way they did.

    No, they didn't. The strata and the ordering of the fossil record contradict the notion of a single, global flood. In fact, if there were no Genesis flood story, no one would be talking about the possibility of a global flood because there is no evidence for it and the story is simply preposterous. You are letting your religious faith override your common sense.

    Secondly, explain why a certain plant bears seeds and only one kind of bird eats those seeds and through their digestion process is the only way the seeds are able to germinate and reproduce. How can a plant like that grow if there is no bird to help it? What would be the advantage of evolving that charactoristic?

    All living creatures adapt to their surroundings in order to survive. Their surroundings include other creatures. Adaptations do not occur overnight, but gradually.

    Or a bumble bee, who by all scientific measurements should not be able to fly because of the aerodynamics and weight of his body.

    Aerodynamics are for fixed-wing airplanes, not animals with flapping wings. I'm guessing that you are simply parroting this old, creationist tract and actually know very little about aerodynamics.

    Again look it up.

    Did you before you posted that evidence of ignorance?

    I could go on naming species who have disadvantages to their environment that have been around forever. Wouldn't these creatures have been wiped out or changed into something better evolved for the environment?

    Many have.

    Or ape's, if ape's evolved into humans they shouldn't be around anymore right? Either that, or they should still be evolving as we speak. We should be able to witness the missing links before our very eyes!

    We can. Penguins, bats, flying fish are some obvious examples. Lungfish are a still surviving transitional form.

    If creatures have been evolving for millions of years they would each be evolving at different rates and times. Don't you think that within the last 2000 years SOMEONE would have seen one link species? But they haven't, because species only change in and of themselves.
    (& don't say the duck billed platypus. He is his own type of guy and I think God threw him in there just for fun, because God is like that!)


    That is so funny! You have just demonstrated the incredible lengths people will go to deny evolution. Very, very funny!!!

    You ask me to specify one missing link species, as if it would take just one to prove my point. And then what do you do? You name one YOURSELF, and then say that doesn't count because "God threw him in there just for fun" !!!!!

    Talk about making yourself look dumb.


    Also, I am a Biology major.

    One last question. You say you are a biology major. Exactly how far into Biology 101 are you?
     
  11. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    It just seems bacteria have no reason to evolve into anything else. They can even survive in outer speace. I saw a Discovery channel blurb where they got some bacteria off a camera that had been on the moon. Now, maybe the Discovery Channel is full of it, I dunno, cuz I don't know how they got that thing off the moon, but still.

    Anyone real up on how colonies turn into actual whole organisms?
     
  12. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    subsitute "environmental pressure" for reason, before someone goes off on my head.
     
  13. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    Bear: I love you man!! God bless you!
    That is exactly what I have been trying to say!

    The Atheist get off trying to make Christians sound like some kind of oxymoron. We are not all stuck somewhere in the past, claiming this world's destruction because of science. God has given Christians insight into the inner reaches of our beings both physical through science and spiritually through Christ. There is no need for conflict. Science will never disprove the reality of truth that is God. But you must understand that natural science is the physical study of life therefore scientist do not take the soul and spirit into consideration. For this reason... although I will be grateful for their many contributions to my life, I will keep my soul and spirit safe in the arms of my Creator. Their false theories of our origination will always remain unproven. For unless God is allowed in... a gaping hole will remain.

    Thank you for being considerate in your repose to me. I am sorry, if it looked to you like I was Bear trapping.I only come on the threads started by Atheist if I think they are posing a danger to Christians. To tell you the truth my interest at this point is far removed from the beginning of time... for instead my eyes and ears are evaluating signs and thoughts of the "End of Time".

    :) LOVE
     
  14. Christi

    Christi Well-Known Member

    +212
    Christian
    Married
    My opinion, for what little it is worth: this stuff doesn't matter. God made us. How He did it, I won't know in this world. I believe the Bible, and I believe His ways are above our ways. I believe there is a spiritual dimension we may never understand in this world. But how we came to be matters little compared to WHY we came to be. TO GLORIFY GOD. To "reflect" his glory. To love Him. To be loved by Him. For people to see Him in us. We should not ever forget that. He neve quibbled over stupid stuff.
     
  15. Ray K

    Ray K Cogito ergo sum

    885
    +4
    Your God sounds pretty vain. You would think that an all-powerful, all-knowing being could figure out something better to do that create things merely for the purpose of worshiping him. You know, like maybe having an intelligent dialog with him.

    I think a God seems to be severely restricted by the limited imaginations and baser impulses of his believers.
     
  16. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    One of the more hostile posts I've seen you make. You seem to have missed the part where she mentioned Him loving us was a big part of the picture. So what's so wrong with creating people to love and be loved by?

    I posted a big huge explanation of this for you once and apparently it didn't really make much of an impact. :) Anyhoo, that last post seemed a bit uncalled for, to me.
     
  17. Ray K

    Ray K Cogito ergo sum

    885
    +4
    I am assuming that you are taking exception to the following statement:
    "I think a God seems to be severely restricted by the limited imaginations and baser impulses of his believers. "

    I think that is a self-evident statement. By definition, any perception of God must be limited by our imaginations. In addition, it is normal to anthropomorphize God into thinking how we would think.

    I think it is completely preposterous that an all-knowing and all-powerful God would create such flawed creatures for the express purpose of worshipping him. I have no problem with the "loving" God, it's the endless bleating about "worshipping" and "praising" him for all eternity.

    The one thing that sets humanity apart from all other forms of life is the ability to reason and think rationally, and yet most of the people on this planet conceive of a creator that expects us to disregard this attribute. Worshipping another being is such an incredible waste of our most important talent. I think that a creator would not want us to kneel before him, but to stand up interact with him.

    I think the typical conception of God speaks poorly of us, reflecting our own unimaginative vanities.
     
  18. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    That is a view very highly influenced by your own wordlview, and does not reflect how Christians view the concept of worship. looking around in the world, Christians tend to blame the obvius culprit for human wrongdoing: humans. Even if I were to hypothesize that we have made up a God, I would suggest that the reason for that action, and the subsequent worship of that being, would be precisely that our rational minds have seen the dichotomy between what would be good and what is, and have used both our rational minds and our spiritual or emotional souls (or feelings/instincts, for your benefit) to come up with an artistic and pragmatic solution to the problem. Again, that is assuming thre is no God.

    Obiously if there IS a God, He's just miffed you think He's vain. :D (kidding!)

    But I mean seriously, you get the two views I'm getting at here, and how if there's a God, your view is invalid from the get go, and even if you are right and there is no God, this does not necessarily represent the imaginationless and stupid but rather an invetion of the whole mind, both rational and emotional?

    And also that I make run on sentences?
     
  19. brt28006

    brt28006 Member

    236
    +0
    In 1964, Dr. D.J. Reish removed 6 polychaetes (Nereis acuminata) from Los Angeles/Long Beach harbor, and grew his sample to a size of thousands. In 1986, four pairs from this group were brought to Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution; the population at Woods Hole thus had gone through two bottlenecks, which are supposed to help drive evolution through genetic drift. In 1977-1978, two new cultures of N. acuminata were gathered from nearby Long Beach and Newport Beach, and grown under the same conditions as the Woods Hole sample. The three populations were later crossed, and it was found that the only crosses that would not produce viable offspring were the crosses involving Woods Hole and the two new cultures. This signifies nothing less than speciation, and all in the laboratory - all observed directly (Weinberg et al. 1992.)


    Apart from that,
    Just because they are unproven doesn't mean that they are false.
    For you to say they are false would require that you prove, by scientific method, the existence of God.
     
  20. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Depending on how you define speciation. This is part of the problem I have with the concept. It is possible, but every example I have seen so far has real problems. This is not really an entirely different species, this is one where a specific crossbreed of the species gives rise to children not able to survive. One can imagine closing the circle on these with a 4th breed of worm.

    Furthermore, working in worms and bacteria and yeast does not give much support to the idea of development and speciation in the higher order animals.

    There is another interesting example I read where one breed of a certain animal could not cross with another breed of the same species, but it was brought on by microrganisms. WHen the beasts were fed antibiotics, they could once again cross-breed. Very odd stuff.

    You have said, just because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it didn;t happen. It is also true, however, that just because something happens now doesn't mean it happened before. So even if you could get some examples of convincing speciation in higher order animals, I'm afraid it would still not be proof to many.

    Part of the problem with these competing worldviews is a difference of opinion on the very nature of consciousness and free will, and on the understanding of what is "likely" or plausible in the minds of the adherents to the oposing viewpoints.

    Just some things for you to chew on.
     
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