Evidence

[KCfromNC]

Ok, but for the record, I don't want to convert people to my theology, I want to convert them to their theology, their own unique experience of finding the prepersonal God; unity, not uniformity.

Would you be satisfied with someone finding that in their theology the prepersonal God is just a figment of others' imaginations? Or do you have a more specific outcome in mind?

 

[kristina411]

When you say "I spend a great deal of my early 20s believing nothing.", I don't know what to make of that.
You are 28. Your early twenties are not so long ago. "A great deal" isn't even all of your "early twenties". I on the other hand have been "believing nothing" (and I wouldn't describe it that way) for a lot longer than you are alive.

Since you want this to be out in the open... Here goes...
If having you be a non believer for longer than I am alive, makes me lose some battle here, I accept that defeat. Every moment I did not believe was a moment too long. You can take the victory of unbelief.

I notice more often than not, when a poster starts commenting on another's age, attempting to devalue the others opinion, it is because they have run dry. Said person is left to small attempts at "putting them in their place"so to speak.
Your entire post does nothing but disagree with anything you could fathom, including my own personal life. I have no use for this and for this reason our line of questioning has come to an end.

I have found that most believers tend to have a slightly screwed view on their previous position. I have talked to people who said they had been "atheists" before now becoming "born again"... and had been just standard, majority, church-raised, bible-school-adhering, not-totally-taking-it-serious christian teenagers.

Were they "atheists"? Did they "believe in nothing"? Well, perhaps... but not in the way I would describe myself.

If I even become a Christian, my posts here will still be there, for everbody to see what I questioned and what I believed "before". I wish such documentation would exist for a lot more people.

So now this discussion has been reduced to a mindset of "you can't join my atheist club all you posers!" I thought you were so much older and more wise?

(And evidently don't work. There are some interesting studies about the success rates of AA)

And the countless people who have been helped... They don't matter because it doesn't fit in your ideas right? Christians could never do anything good right? But skepticism is what love, healing, happiness, and kindness are all about I suppose?

Just so much: yes, I agree that faith creates change within you. But, based on experience with a lot of different "faiths", I think I can say that is is indeed the act of "faith" that enables this change... irrelevant of the object of this faith.

and your evidence beyond it being your "personal experience"? Pass. My experience has shown differently.

As I see it, people are people. Whatever they do in "good" or "bad" comes from within, from themselves. A "good Christian" is a good person who happens to be a Christian. An "evil atheist" is an evil person who happens to be an atheist.

we actually agree on something.

That may be one of these personal experiences that make the difference between you and Colter and me: I recognized that the existence of a question does not necessarily imply the existence of an answer. And I recognized that inventing answers for meaningless questions might provide comfort, but not truth.

to claim there was an inventor and not THE Creator, you would have to prove where faith in the God of Abraham came from and that it was not through Devine revelation but through man himself. You are making a very large, and negative claim, for something you have so little evidence of. "invent" ha! .

I know that this is a big "no, no!" around Christian (and even non-Christians)... but I did never see Jesus as such a huge thing. If this is the "best example of how a Christian ought to be", I don't think they are aiming very hight. (and, yes, I did read the Bible ;()

Than you clearly did not pay attention to what you read. That or peace, joy, love, kindness, forgiveness... Are values you do not hold high.

I'd like to continue this conversation, by PM if you need to, but I'd prefer this public space.
Ideas and opinions should be out in the open, to be seen and scrutinized by everyone.

The rest of your post I did not feel the need to continue on because it appears as if the post is more argumentative, in a more discreet manner and I haven't the time. There is a reason I am not the only one constantly calling people out on this, and it isn't because we are "those horrible Christians that get upset over everything".
I hope in future discussions that our conversation is more productive. Take care.

To the rest of the posters, I will not be responding further on the issue.

 

[Freodin]

Since you want this to be out in the open...


*** snip ***

I hope in future discussions that our conversation is more productive. Take care.

To the rest of the posters, I will not be responding further on the issue.

There really is no reason to be that touchy. If you have any problems with my posts, just ask. I really don't mean to offend... it is not necessary to jump to negative conclusions instantly.


If you are still interesting in any kind of communication, I am here.

If not... have a nice life.

 

[Colter]

Would you be satisfied with someone finding that in their theology the prepersonal God is just a figment of others' imaginations? Or do you have a more specific outcome in mind?

You are entitled toy believe what you want, in the mind arena of choice we have that freedom.

 

[kristina411]

There really is no reason to be that touchy. If you have any problems with my posts, just ask. I really don't mean to offend... it is not necessary to jump to negative conclusions instantly.


If you are still interesting in any kind of communication, I am here.

If not... have a nice life.

Who is the touchy one? The one who finds fault in the first post or the one who finds fault in the second?
I dare say no need for you to get "all touchy" and "jump to negative conclusions" about my post. Yet another example of how this board needs to change when communicating with each other. double standards should not be so frequent.

 

[Freodin]

Who is the touchy one? The one who finds fault in the first post or the one who finds fault in the second?
I dare say no need for you to get "all touchy" and "jump to negative conclusions" about my post.

Well... I didn't. Read my post again. I think I made it quite clear that I don't condemn you, for your age or your claims or whatever. I just pointed out that I might have different experiences (yes, even due to my being older than you... that shouldn't be a question of dispute), and that I have my reasons (which I presented) for not accepting your story on face value.

On the other hand, managed to make that out as a "battle" between us, accuse me of wanting to "put you to place", discard without consideration my own experiences, and tell me what kind of things I obviously do not value.

Jumping to conclusions, I call that.

Yet another example of how this board needs to change when communicating with each other. double standards should not be so frequent.

Have you ever considered the log in your own eye?

As I said, I am still here. I am always open to serious conversation... I am usually quite reasonable and polite, so if there is anything that you think is an attack on your person... just ask how I meant that!.

Don't start with "Obviously you just don't understand and you are a bad person!" (Not a direct quote, but I'd say you know what original I was aiming at.)

 

[kristina411]

Well... I didn't. Read my post again. I think I made it quite clear that I don't condemn you, for your age or your claims or whatever. I just pointed out that I might have different experiences (yes, even due to my being older than you... that shouldn't be a question of dispute), and that I have my reasons (which I presented) for not accepting your story on face value.

On the other hand, managed to make that out as a "battle" between us, accuse me of wanting to "put you to place", discard without consideration my own experiences, and tell me what kind of things I obviously do not value.

Jumping to conclusions, I call that.


Have you ever considered the log in your own eye?

As I said, I am still here. I am always open to serious conversation... I am usually quite reasonable and polite, so if there is anything that you think is an attack on your person... just ask how I meant that!.

Don't start with "Obviously you just don't understand and you are a bad person!" (Not a direct quote, but I'd say you know what original I was aiming at.)

Lol i never deny my "logs" and own up T them quite frequently, on this board as well.
Again, who is getting touchy?
I am merely pointing out the double standards. I am not denying what is expected of Christians, merely pointing out that none of you "play by your own rules".
But I'm touchy? Right.id suggest you reevaluate how you communicate with others, because if you are genuine in what you say, it doesn't show. And I am not the only one who has said this.
Take care-or as you put it-have a nice life (and you weren't being touchy?)

 

[Freodin]

Lol i never deny my "logs" and own up T them quite frequently, on this board as well.

Yes, I can definitly see how you do that right now.

Again, who is getting touchy?
I am merely pointing out the double standards. I am not denying what is expected of Christians, merely pointing out that none of you "play by your own rules".
But I'm touchy? Right.id suggest you reevaluate how you communicate with others, because if you are genuine in what you say, it doesn't show. And I am not the only one who has said this.

Yes, I have a huge reputation as a meanie to hold up on this forum.

Take care-or as you put it-have a nice life (and you weren't being touchy?)

Well... have a nice life.

 

[Loudmouth]

Am I not clear? How much more clear can I be? I do NOT claim to have PROOF of my faith, my God that would satisfy you. I cannot prove the existence of God beyond a doubt for you. But I know him, he's way cool!

And btw, in my theology, the only thing my resurrection on the Mansion worlds will add to me is the fact of survival, God will still be a matter of faith. A resurrected person could reason that the intelligent beings of the celestial world are just as naturally occurring as atheist claim man is on earth from uncaused evolution.

In my theology Lucifer himself lost faith in the unseen father and launched an ideological war in heaven against the rule of the Father in the Son.

You keep claiming that you have evidence, and that atheists are ignoring or purposefully blind to that evidence. When you make such a claim, it is incumbent on you to present that evidence.

 

[Loudmouth]

You are confused, I don't owe you any evidence of the existence of my God and you don't owe me any evidence of a Godless universe. I can't prove God and you can't disprove God.

Why would I need to disprove the existence of a deity that no one can show to exist?

 

[Colter]

You keep claiming that you have evidence, and that atheists are ignoring or purposefully blind to that evidence. When you make such a claim, it is incumbent on you to present that evidence.

That's not exactly what I have said.

I have a relationship with God, I know his presence, but I don't have any proof of that sufficient for you. You would have to seek God yourself to find what I have found. But even then you would be unable to provide evidence of that sufficient to convince other nonbelievers.

 

[Loudmouth]

That's not exactly what I have said.

I have a relationship with God, I know his presence, but I don't have any proof of that sufficient for you. You would have to seek God yourself to find what I have found. But even then you would be unable to provide evidence of that sufficient to convince other nonbelievers.

When you claim to have knowledge, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that knowledge. Also, if the evidence would not convince me, then it shouldn't convince you, either. The concept of evidence is the same for all people.

 

[Colter]

When you claim to have knowledge, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that knowledge. Also, if the evidence would not convince me, then it shouldn't convince you, either. The concept of evidence is the same for all people.

It seems that your are frustrated at not being able to control? I have the experience of knowing God, I have received the gift of faith, I do tell others about it but, it's not incumbent on me to convince you of anything.

Anyhow, the evidence would be the same for you if you ever sincerely search for and find the true God. We would then have the experience in common.

 

[Albion]

When you claim to have knowledge, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that knowledge. Also, if the evidence would not convince me, then it shouldn't convince you, either. The concept of evidence is the same for all people.

IMO, not exactly so. This is a discussion board. It's not an oral examination.

Unless the poster is saying something absolutely incredible, the reader who is already conversant with the issues should give the other person some credit without immediately demanding "evidence." There are exceptions, of course, but I can't identify with those folks who make "Prove it!" their go-to response to almost any comment they don't agree with.

 

[Loudmouth]

That's not exactly what I have said.

"I have a relationship with God, I know his presence,"

If you had said that you believe through faith that you have a relationship with God, then that would be different. You didn't say that. You claimed something more concrete than faith and belief. You claimed knowledge.

 

[Loudmouth]

IMO, not exactly so. This is a discussion board. It's not an oral examination.

Unless the poster is saying something absolutely incredible, the reader who is already conversant with the issues should give the other person some credit without immediately demanding "evidence." There are exceptions, of course, but I can't identify with those folks who make "Prove it!" their go-to response to almost any comment they don't agree with.

I can't identify with people who have no evidence for what they claim to know.

 

[Colter]

"I have a relationship with God, I know his presence,"

If you had said that you believe through faith that you have a relationship with God, then that would be different. You didn't say that. You claimed something more concrete than faith and belief. You claimed knowledge.

Yes, it's like a cell phone finds the signal. The phone is not the signal. You will have to find the signal yourself, we would then have that in common.

Religious Growth​

(1094.3) 100:1.1 While religion produces growth of meanings and enhancement of values, evil always results when purely personal evaluations are elevated to the levels of absolutes. A child evaluates experience in accordance with the content of pleasure; maturity is proportional to the substitution of higher meanings for personal pleasure, even loyalties to the highest concepts of diversified life situations and cosmic relations.

(1094.4) 100:1.2 Some persons are too busy to grow and are therefore in grave danger of spiritual fixation. Provision must be made for growth of meanings at differing ages, in successive cultures, and in the passing stages of advancing civilization. The chief inhibitors of growth are prejudice and ignorance.

(1094.5) 100:1.3 Give every developing child a chance to grow his own religious experience; do not force a ready-made adult experience upon him. Remember, year-by-year progress through an established educational regime does not necessarily mean intellectual progress, much less spiritual growth. Enlargement of vocabulary does not signify development of character. Growth is not truly indicated by mere products but rather by progress. Real educational growth is indicated by enhancement of ideals, increased appreciation of values, new meanings of values, and augmented loyalty to supreme values.

(1094.6) 100:1.4 Children are permanently impressed only by the loyalties of their adult associates; precept or even example is not lastingly influential. Loyal persons are growing persons, and growth is an impressive and inspiring reality. Live loyally today — grow — and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole.

(1094.7) 100:1.5 The soil essential for religious growth presupposes a progressive life of self-realization, the co-ordination of natural propensities, the exercise of curiosity and the enjoyment of reasonable adventure, the experiencing of feelings of satisfaction, the functioning of the fear stimulus of attention and awareness, the wonder-lure, and a normal consciousness of smallness, humility. Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism — conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.

(1095.1) 100:1.6 Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.

(1095.2) 100:1.7 Religion cannot be bestowed, received, loaned, learned, or lost. It is a personal experience which grows proportionally to the growing quest for final values. Cosmic growth thus attends on the accumulation of meanings and the ever-expanding elevation of values. But nobility itself is always an unconscious growth.

(1095.3) 100:1.8 Religious habits of thinking and acting are contributory to the economy of spiritual growth. One can develop religious predispositions toward favorable reaction to spiritual stimuli, a sort of conditioned spiritual reflex. Habits which favor religious growth embrace cultivated sensitivity to divine values, recognition of religious living in others, reflective meditation on cosmic meanings, worshipful problem solving, sharing one’s spiritual life with one’s fellows, avoidance of selfishness, refusal to presume on divine mercy, living as in the presence of God. The factors of religious growth may be intentional, but the growth itself is unvaryingly unconscious.

(1095.4) 100:1.9 The unconscious nature of religious growth does not, however, signify that it is an activity functioning in the supposed subconscious realms of human intellect; rather does it signify creative activities in the superconscious levels of mortal mind. The experience of the realization of the reality of unconscious religious growth is the one positive proof of the functional existence of the superconsciousness. UB 1955
​

 

[Colter]

I can't identify with people who have no evidence for what they claim to know.

Well, you seem to be ok with the people who claim to "know" that their is no God?????

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thread is closed at OP request.

I will add that it had gone off topic and because a General Apologetics type of thread that is not allowed here.