Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

[Jet_A_Jockey]

thanks for the reply.

Nothing needs to be defended. I don't see this as a blanket condemnation of same sex, monogamous relationships.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to same sex monogamous relationships, im speaking of same-sex sex in general.

There is also a lot of debate over what they really wanted to do with the angels, but the word "yada" is used (Bring them out to us so that we may "know" them), which has been interpreted as "violent rape".

Since Lot offered up his daughters as a 'substitute', it does help clarify their intentions.

As it says, "all the men surrounded the house, both young and old". To assume that ALL the men from the city are homosexual, is quite unbelievable. Homosexuals have always accounted for a minority of the population.

I think that the "all the men of the city" part reinforces the amount wickedness that was prevalent there. Hence why the angels were there in the first place, and also with Abraham's pleading to God if a prerequisite amount of righteous were to be found there.

It was relatively common back then for the victorious army to rape high-ranking leaders of the defeated foe.

This has nothing to do with sodom and gomorrah, unless you contend that they wished to wage war with the angels of God (and had defeated them already).

 

[RMDY]

Supporting prejudice and discrimination and using religion to justify such IS persecution

That is the truth, but sadly, many don't see it that way.

Try living as a gay person for a year, and then come back and tell us if gay people face persecution.

Where do you get that from my post? You keep reading statements into people's posts that are not there.

When have I ever accused you of physically harming gay people or wanting to do so? There are people who physically harm gay people, and many of us, myself included, have been subjected to physical attack. That doesn't mean YOU do this.

You have said that you oppose physically harming or persecuting gay people, and I take you at your word about that.

Why are you so defensive about this? You don't need to be.

Btw, gay people ARE persecuted and subject to attacks and murders in alarming numbers. But you are not the one doing this. So you don't need to feel defensive about it.

Dear Mr. Pirate,

In the latest posts you have made against me, you judge my character as one who loves to oppress and inflict suffering upon homosexuals. You expressed this in one of your posts by expecting that I have such an attitude by saying it would be to my disappointment.

When I point this out to you so that you won't judge others, you call me out by saying I am complaining I am being persecuted and give me a no-mercy, boo-hoo attitude. Honestly, I am more concerned about this kind-of-demeanor you have toward others than what else you may do as a christian, simply because it is very unloving. Accusations are something that belong to the spirit of the accuser. Stop accusing people. Stop judging others. I have not judged you. I have not slandered you. I have not accused you. I forgive you for your poor attitude you have and urge you to change it.

Sadly, a lot of christians do not walk as examples and use Jesus name to hurt others. But people like myself do not have to suffer for this and be judged because of what someone has done in the past.

I already know gay people face persecution. But you don't have to throw it in my face every time I express my thoughts about it being a sin to partake in the passions, pride, and desires of being gay.

Ohioprof, most of this time I have been defending myself against Mr. Pirates posts against me.


Am I doing something wrong here? Perhaps I should be meek toward you Mr. Pirate, and just accept what you have to say without defending myself and rebuking you for your unloving attitude.

You need to be more patient with people and more kind, not this "oh, boo-hoo" you've been displaying towards me, and associating me with someone who loves to inflict inflictions upon homosexuals. For one thing, you don't even know me in real life and two, you shouldn't be judging someone.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Mr. Pirate,

In the latest posts you have made against me, you judge my character as one who loves to oppress and inflict suffering upon homosexuals. You expressed this in one of your posts by expecting that I have such an attitude by saying it would be to my disappointment.

When I point this out to you so that you won't judge others, you call me out by saying I am complaining I am being persecuted and give me a no-mercy, boo-hoo attitude. Honestly, I am more concerned about this kind-of-demeanor you have toward others than what else you may do as a christian, simply because it is very unloving. Accusations are something that belong to the spirit of the accuser. Stop accusing people. Stop judging others. I have not judged you. I have not slandered you. I have not accused you. I forgive you for your poor attitude you have and urge you to change it.

Sadly, a lot of christians do not walk as examples and use Jesus name to hurt others. But people like myself do not have to suffer for this and be judged because of what someone has done in the past.

I already know gay people face persecution. But you don't have to throw it in my face every time I express my thoughts about it being a sin to partake in the passions, pride, and desires of being gay.

Ohioprof, most of this time I have been defending myself against Mr. Pirates posts against me.


Am I doing something wrong here? Perhaps I should be meek toward you Mr. Pirate, and just accept what you have to say without defending myself and rebuking you for your unloving attitude.

You need to be more patient with people and more kind, not this "oh, boo-hoo" you've been displaying towards me, and associating me with someone who loves to inflict inflictions upon homosexuals. For one thing, you don't even know me in real life and two, you shouldn't be judging someone.

Yes, you have been responding mostly to Mr. Pirate's posts. But then you responded to one of MY posts as though I had claimed that you want to physically harm gay people. I have never said such a thing. I was talking about people who DO want to physically harm gay people. Not you.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Mr. Pirate,

In the latest posts you have made against me, you judge my character as one who loves to oppress and inflict suffering upon homosexuals. You expressed this in one of your posts by expecting that I have such an attitude by saying it would be to my disappointment.

When I point this out to you so that you won't judge others, you call me out by saying I am complaining I am being persecuted and give me a no-mercy, boo-hoo attitude. Honestly, I am more concerned about this kind-of-demeanor you have toward others than what else you may do as a christian, simply because it is very unloving. Accusations are something that belong to the spirit of the accuser. Stop accusing people. Stop judging others. I have not judged you. I have not slandered you. I have not accused you. I forgive you for your poor attitude you have and urge you to change it.

Sadly, a lot of christians do not walk as examples and use Jesus name to hurt others. But people like myself do not have to suffer for this and be judged because of what someone has done in the past.

I already know gay people face persecution. But you don't have to throw it in my face every time I express my thoughts about it being a sin to partake in the passions, pride, and desires of being gay.

Ohioprof, most of this time I have been defending myself against Mr. Pirates posts against me.


Am I doing something wrong here? Perhaps I should be meek toward you Mr. Pirate, and just accept what you have to say without defending myself and rebuking you for your unloving attitude.

You need to be more patient with people and more kind, not this "oh, boo-hoo" you've been displaying towards me, and associating me with someone who loves to inflict inflictions upon homosexuals. For one thing, you don't even know me in real life and two, you shouldn't be judging someone.

I would like to add something here. I know you do not agree with or support those who physically attack or persecute gay people. That is clear, and I applaud you for saying this. However, I think that going around saying that gay people are "sinning" does contribute to a climate of anti-gay sentiment in the wider culture. I think you are not helping anyone when you go around saying that gay people are "sinning," and you may inadvertently be encouraging those who DO physically attack gay people and who persecute gay people. I know that is not your intention, but it may be an indirect outcome of you and others making pronouncements about our alleged "sin." Remember that those who DO attack gay people also claim as their justification that we are "sinning." Of course you don't agree with them in their behavior, which is to attack gay people, but your assertion that we are "sinning" may just add fuel to their belief that what they are doing is okay.

Now, you will probably ask if I am telling you that you should not say what you really believe. I do believe in free speech and in the value of people speaking their own beliefs out loud, and that includes people with whom I disagree. I value forums like this one. So no, I will not tell you to be silent about what you believe.

I do think it would be helpful if people who say that gay people are "sinning" also say, out loud and regularly, that it's not okay to beat gay people up, to attack gay people, to kill gay people, to persecute gay people, or to discriminate against gay people by law. That would be helpful, because it would make clear that some folks here, while believing that "homosexuality" is a "sin" are not supporters of those who treat gay people as less than full and worthy human beings.

 

[davedjy]

I'm not sure why you keep referring to same sex monogamous relationships, im speaking of same-sex sex in general.

That is where our viewpoints differ. I don't see this story in any way, shape or form, a condemnation of all same sex behavior.

 

[RMDY]

Originally Posted by Ohioprof
Try living as a gay person for a year, and then come back and tell us if gay people face persecution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioprof
Where do you get that from my post? You keep reading statements into people's posts that are not there.

When have I ever accused you of physically harming gay people or wanting to do so? There are people who physically harm gay people, and many of us, myself included, have been subjected to physical attack. That doesn't mean YOU do this.

You have said that you oppose physically harming or persecuting gay people, and I take you at your word about that.

Why are you so defensive about this? You don't need to be.

Btw, gay people ARE persecuted and subject to attacks and murders in alarming numbers. But you are not the one doing this. So you don't need to feel defensive about it.

ah, I see what you mean Ohioprof. I meant to reply to your posts but I got too caught up in my post to Mr. Pirate.

I am very aware homosexuals face persecution. The subject of homosexuality is a very emotional one.
No, Ohioprof, I am not suggesting or saying your accusing me of anything.
But, I have been very defensive to make the point that I don't inflict suffering or harm upon homosexuals to deflect accusations being made against me from other people.
Like I said, I understand the topic of homosexuality is an emotional one. My gay friend use to visit me at work quite often, and I would draw attention from certain people because of this. Nonetheless, I ignored it---it as in the kind of negative attention it generated. I don't descriminate against who my friends are.

I admit though I did stop being friends with him down the road because he turned out to be not a good person who fabricated a lot of lies about everyone, caused problems some people that were just too much for my brothers and some people I know to deal with.

I know I haven't done anything to harm gay people, but it doesn't help when I express what I believe and a fellow christian such as Mr. Pirate expresses his disdain towards me in an unfortunante way.

 

[MrPirate]

Dear Mr. Pirate,

In the latest posts you have made against me, you judge my character as one who loves to oppress and inflict suffering upon homosexuals. You expressed this in one of your posts by expecting that I have such an attitude by saying it would be to my disappointment.

Still trying to play the victim I see.

When I point this out to you so that you won't judge others, you call me out by saying I am complaining I am being persecuted and give me a no-mercy, boo-hoo attitude. Honestly, I am more concerned about this kind-of-demeanor you have toward others than what else you may do as a christian, simply because it is very unloving.

You are….in fact you started and entire thread about this supposed victimization
http://foru.ms/t6161332-should-preaching-that-homosexuality-is-a-sin-be-a-hate-crime.html

Accusations are something that belong to the spirit of the accuser. Stop accusing people. Stop judging others.

I refer you back to the thread you started. And suggest that your own advice

I have not judged you. I have not slandered you. I have not accused you.

Never claimed you did.

I forgive you for your poor attitude you have and urge you to change it.

And playing the victim once again…

Sadly, a lot of christians do not walk as examples and use Jesus name to hurt others. But people like myself do not have to suffer for this and be judged because of what someone has done in the past.

No one has judged you on the past actions of others

I already know gay people face persecution. But you don't have to throw it in my face every time I express my thoughts about it being a sin to partake in the passions, pride, and desires of being gay.

“I don't agree that homosexuals are persecuted against”
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39149930&postcount=583

Ohioprof, most of this time I have been defending myself against Mr. Pirates posts against me.

Yes I’m a big ol’ meanie…confronting your unsupported accusations like I do…bad pirate…bad

Am I doing something wrong here? Perhaps I should be meek toward you Mr. Pirate, and just accept what you have to say without defending myself and rebuking you for your unloving attitude.

I see you have been really practicing that victim role

You need to be more patient with people and more kind, not this "oh, boo-hoo" you've been displaying towards me, and associating me with someone who loves to inflict inflictions upon homosexuals. For one thing, you don't even know me in real life and two, you shouldn't be judging someone.

Inflict inflictions

 

[RMDY]

Mr. Pirate, you suggest I hate homosexuals and accuse me of being disappointed that they have freedom.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

That is where our viewpoints differ. I don't see this story in any way, shape or form, a condemnation of all same sex behavior.

I realized that.

So what do you believe is God's will on same sex relationships, then? And why?

 

[davedjy]

I realized that.

So what do you believe is God's will on same sex relationships, then? And why?

I believe God's will is that they are in a monogamous, life-long commitment, just as heterosexual relationships. Why? same principles applied.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I believe God's will is that they are in a monogamous, life-long commitment, just as heterosexual relationships. Why? same principles applied.

I can understand your feelings on that, but what biblically leads you to the conclusion?

 

[davedjy]

I can understand your feelings on that, but what biblically leads you to the conclusion?

Using the same principles as heterosexual relationships from the Bible, regarding a life-long partnership. Same sex, monogamous relationships were not part of the culture back in Biblical times...however, polygamy and slavery clearly were (by the Bible).

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Same sex, monogamous relationships were not part of the culture back in Biblical times....

Why not? They did exist outside of the israelites culture right? Could it be because it was condemned in Israelite culture?

 

[davedjy]

Why not? They did exist outside of the israelites culture right? Could it be because it was condemned in Israelite culture?

I don't really see any evidence to support this, do you?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I don't really see any evidence to support this, do you?

biblically, nope. I haven't studied much of other societies during that time so I have no idea. If they are happening now, why wouldn't they have happened back then?

 

[davedjy]

biblically, nope. I haven't studied much of other societies during that time so I have no idea. If they are happening now, why wouldn't they have happened back then?

Of course things change with the times, just as we don't accept polygamy and slavery anymore.

It would be hard to say that one never existed, but clearly the situation is ignored here.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

So the question may be why was it ignored, were they or God not aware of it, or was it condemned in israelite life?

 

[davedjy]

So the question may be why was it ignored, were they or God not aware of it, or was it condemned in israelite life?

I'm not sure there is a set answer to that, of course we know God is all-knowing, and all-aware. I have read quite a few times that a homosexual "orientation" was unknown back in those times. Obviously, people would've had to have been born gay then, but I can't really give you a definitive answer, I will have to look into that.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The reason why the lack of orientation argument doesn't sit well with me is that if people now are in same sex relationships, why weren't they then. I can understand that they wouldn't come out in public if it were against the law in some way, but what about in societies where same-sex sex was in the norm? ancient greece pops into mind but i'm by no means a history scholar so dont quote me on that

 

[davedjy]

The reason why the lack of orientation argument doesn't sit well with me is that if people now are in same sex relationships, why weren't they then. I can understand that they wouldn't come out in public if it were against the law in some way, but what about in societies where same-sex sex was in the norm? ancient greece pops into mind but i'm by no means a history scholar so dont quote me on that

The reason I can't really give you a definitive answer, is that I have read and heard everything from that they weren't part of the historical times, to they existed but went unnoticed, to them not being allowed since it was improper for a man to play the "passive role" in a sexual situation.