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Evidence of design

Vaccine

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Of course. The notion that science rejects it because they're afraid of finding God is a figment of the creationist imagination.
Ok.

1. testable:
"How does one test and discredit Behe's claims? Describe a realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor. The flagellum might still be designed, but Behe's means of detecting such design would have been falsified.

Darwinists like Kenneth Miller point to the hope of future discoveries, and to the type III secretory system as a machine possibly co-opted on the evolutionary path to the flagellum. The argument is riddled with problems, but it shows that Miller, at least, understands perfectly well that Behe's argument is testable."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/01/intelligent_design_is_empirica001819.html

2. predictions:
"Non-functionality of “junk DNA” was predicted by Susumu Ohno (1972), Richard Dawkins (1976), Crick and Orgel (1980), Pagel and Johnstone (1992), and Ken Miller (1994), based on evolutionary presuppositions.


By contrast, predictions of functionality of “junk DNA” were made based on teleological bases by Michael Denton (1986, 1998), Michael Behe (1996), John West (1998), William Dembski (1998), Richard Hirsch (2000), and Jonathan Wells (2004)."
http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/#nopred

3. Fruitful:
List of peer reviewed research http://www.discovery.org/id/peer-review/


4. Explanatory power
"Intelligent design is a good explanation for a number of biochemical systems, but I should insert a word of caution. Intelligent design theory has to be seen in context: it does not try to explain everything."

http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/#nopred

5. parsimonious Which is more parsimonious, one designer or infinite universes?
http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...-are-trying-to-turn-occams-razor-on-its-head/
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Suppose it was testable, made predictions, had scope and parsimonious. Would you acknowledge it a scientific theory then?
Yes, it would be scientifically adequate. The criteria don't strictly separate scientific from non-scientific hypotheses, but allow you to rank hypotheses. Those that fail the major criteria may still have some interest as speculation, but are inadequate because they're scientifically useless - if they can't be tested or falsified, the scientific method can't be applied.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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specified-complexity

Can be accomplished by a non-intelligent and blind process like evolution.

and irreducible-complexity

Essentially an argument from ignorance, as it literally means "we don't know how this complexity arised, therefor it didn't arise"


You employed those to infer design in the case of human manufacture.

False. Neither of them are used to identify human manufacturing.
Instead, human manufacturing is identified based on signs of manufacturing.

Specific alloys of metal, trademark engravings, signs of manipulation, etc.

Consider the difference between these two "rocks":

upload_2016-10-25_12-56-26.png


and

upload_2016-10-25_12-57-8.png


One has signs of manufacturing. The other doesn't. Can you tell wich?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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You have no way, now workable theory to produce that engineered gear.

Let's assume for a second that Darwin never existed and that nobody has ever come up with the rather simple idea of evolution.

So for all practical intents and purposes, we have no idea how the diversification of life was obtained.

Or even better, let's assume that evolution theory is completely and utterly refuted.

Now, read attentively: This does not, in any way, shape or form, give your particular claim any more credibility.

Just because someone doesn't have an explanation for X, doesn't mean that your claim is somehow valid or correct. Even lacking ANY alternative, you are still required to provide evidence IN SUPPORT of your positive claim. Your claim is not to be accepted by default, simply because no alternative exists.

Even if you could show evolution utterly false, it wouldn't advance your creationist claims by even an inch.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Ok.

1. testable:
"How does one test and discredit Behe's claims? Describe a realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor. The flagellum might still be designed, but Behe's means of detecting such design would have been falsified.

Fallacious. This is asking for negative evidence.
That means that this "test" assumes that Behe's position is the default position and that it is to be accepted if no alternative explanation exists.

That is called "negative evidence". Also oftenly refered to as "shifting the burden of proof".

It is literally saying that "if you can't come up with another explanation, then my claims are correct". No. Your claims are correct if you can show them to be correct. Failing to provide an alternative is NOT "showing your claim to be correct".


2. predictions:
"Non-functionality of “junk DNA” was predicted by Susumu Ohno (1972), Richard Dawkins (1976), Crick and Orgel (1980), Pagel and Johnstone (1992), and Ken Miller (1994), based on evolutionary presuppositions.

By contrast, predictions of functionality of “junk DNA” were made based on teleological bases by Michael Denton (1986, 1998), Michael Behe (1996), John West (1998), William Dembski (1998), Richard Hirsch (2000), and Jonathan Wells (2004)."
http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/#nopred

This is again not adequate. This is, once again, just about trying to poke holes in an alternative explanation. It is, once again, negative evidence.

All of evolution can be shown incorrect later today and it wouldn't advance the case for ID for even an inch.


3. Fruitful:
List of peer reviewed research http://www.discovery.org/id/peer-review/

The discovery institute is not a proper scientific journal.

4. Explanatory power
"Intelligent design is a good explanation for a number of biochemical systems, but I should insert a word of caution. Intelligent design theory has to be seen in context: it does not try to explain everything."

ID explains nothing. Explanatory power is not merely making claims and pretending they are correct.

Explanatory power is about testable predictions and practical applications.


5. parsimonious Which is more parsimonious, one designer or infinite universes?
http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...-are-trying-to-turn-occams-razor-on-its-head/

At least one universe demonstrably exists.
Right out the gates, assuming more such universes exist is less of a leap then assuming gods exist, not one of which demonstrably exists.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You have no way, now workable theory to produce that engineered gear.

We actually do. It's called the theory of evolution.
While on the other hand, you literally have... well, squat.
 
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The Barbarian

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Obviously, there are many examples of striations in the exoskeletons of different orders of insects. Some of them have evolved to different uses, such as sound generation, storing energy, and movement.

No one who is familiar with insects is surprised by this. It's a pretty neat example of evolution by gradual change, though.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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OK, Vaccine's suggestions for making irreducible complexity (or ID?) an adequate hypothesis make a good exercise...

1. testable:
"How does one test and discredit Behe's claims?
The point of the abduction criteria is to compare hypotheses to determine which is the best explanation.

So to start, we need a clear statement of the hypothesis. Is it 'irreducible complexity' in one particular instance? Is it Intelligent Design in general?

What is the hypothesis we're assessing?

Describe a realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor. The flagellum might still be designed, but Behe's means of detecting such design would have been falsified.
Only assuming his hypothesis is, "there is no realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor."

However, finding such a description is not a definitive test or falsification - it's open to debate because such a description would itself be an hypothesis. Falsification requires that you can make some real-world observation or experiment that shows the hypothesis to be wrong, such as finding a fossil mammal in the Cambrian.

Let's assume ID is the (ill-defined) hypothesis...

2. predictions:
"Non-functionality of “junk DNA” was predicted by Susumu Ohno (1972), Richard Dawkins (1976), Crick and Orgel (1980), Pagel and Johnstone (1992), and Ken Miller (1994), based on evolutionary presuppositions.

By contrast, predictions of functionality of “junk DNA” were made based on teleological bases by Michael Denton (1986, 1998), Michael Behe (1996), John West (1998), William Dembski (1998), Richard Hirsch (2000), and Jonathan Wells (2004)."
http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/#nopred
Without seeing the abstracts of the arguments on either side, I can only say that neither seem novel, definitive, or useful here, and their failures won't falsify either hypothesis.

As I understand it, the evolutionary argument is that we should expect to find some non-functional DNA (e.g. from mutation); we know that some of the non-coding DNA previously labelled 'junk' is functional, but there are still large swathes of DNA with no known function. The default is to assume non-functionality until shown otherwise. ENCODE suggests 80% has 'biological activity', but not all biological activity is 'functional'. Also, non-functional DNA can become functional through mutation, so the non-functional expectation is necessarily probabilistic rather than absolute.

Also, I see no explanation for why ID should necessarily predict that non-coding DNA is functional, but in any case, the ID proponents have not demonstrated that all non-coding DNA is functional (or that functional non-coding DNA implies ID).

BUT the evolutionary hypothesis does make a number of strong predictions that are definitely fruitful. That your source has selected a weak and indeterminate prediction for the comparison is telling in itself.

3. Fruitful:
List of peer reviewed research http://www.discovery.org/id/peer-review/
Seriously? I read the first two:

Meyer says says that experience ("experience-based analysis") tells him ID is "causally adequate" to explain the Cambrian explosion... Meh.

Behe concludes, "...decades of experimental laboratory evolution studies strongly suggest that, at the molecular level, loss-of-FCT and diminishing modification-of-function adaptive mutations predominate" (FCT is his code for a particular functional sequence) - right or wrong, it's not about ID.

A fruitful hypothesis makes novel predictions and gets them right. If that list contains such verified predictions, perhaps you could indicate which they are?

4. Explanatory power
"Intelligent design is a good explanation for a number of biochemical systems, but I should insert a word of caution. Intelligent design theory has to be seen in context: it does not try to explain everything."
I previously explained why ID has no explanatory power; in addition to what the link mentions, a key disqualifier is when an hypothesis raises more questions than it answers, especially if those questions are unanswerable. ID is such an hypothesis. You can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

5. parsimonious Which is more parsimonious, one designer or infinite universes?
http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...-are-trying-to-turn-occams-razor-on-its-head/
The multiverse is nothing to do with evolution. If you're comparing ID with evolution, ID introduces an additional (unexplained and inexplicable) entity, possibly with a lot of unstated extra baggage...

But if you do wish to compare ID with multiverse theories, it's worth noting that multiverse ideas don't necessarily involve infinite numbers of universes, and that they are not themselves scientific theories - they arise in or are implied by various physical theories. That said, the idea that the multiverse multiplies entities rests on a misunderstanding both of multiverse ideas and Occam's Razor...

Sean Carroll says the first part best:

"... we physicists sometimes muddy the waters by talking about “multiple universes” or “the multiverse.” These days, the vast majority of such mentions refer not to actual other universes, but to different parts of our universe, causally inaccessible from ours and perhaps governed by different low-energy laws of physics (but the same deep-down ones). In that case there may actually be an ensemble of local regions, and perhaps even some sensibly-defined measure on them. But they’re all part of one big happy universe."

And, for quantum mechanics:

"The MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) holds that we have a Hilbert space, and a wave function, and a rule (Schrödinger’s equation) for how the wave function evolves with time, and that’s it." (that link is the best explanation of it I've seen).

To put it romantically, they're all 'ripples' in the one universal wave function, and quantum superposition is a glimpse of alternate realities before they decohere and you see just one... wherefore theology now? ;)

As for Occam's Razor, in terms of competing theories it is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known.

In other words, the concern is with the simplicity of the theory itself, not with the simplicity of what it implies. For instance, the equations of relativity and quantum mechanics are simple (parsimonious), no matter that they entail views of physical reality that are much more complicated than the Newtonian view. This applies to multiverse ideas such as the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics (which is misunderstood in other ways too).
 
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Kylie

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bug-gear-01.jpg



Gears. Gears are designed things.

No.

You are starting out with an assumption - namely, that all gears are the result of design.

You then say, here are some gear-like mechanisms in nature, therefore they are gears.

Then, you claim that since they are gears and since all gears are designed, then these gears must have a designer.

This is based on two assumptions:
1. All gears are designed
2. These are gears.

You have not provided anything to support your claim that all gears are designed. You have just made the claim, and you expect us to accept it on face value.

You have also stated that these are gears. However, a gear is a wheel with teeth, and wheels have axles, a rod passing through the central point around which the wheel can spin freely. Somehow, I doubt that is the case with these. Yes, they have teeth, but they can only rotate so far before they cannot rotate any further. By your logic, I can claim that my fists are gears, since I can make two fists and my knuckles interleave together like the teeth on a gear. I can even rotate them to a degree. But my fists are not gears.

All you are doing is assuming the very thing you want to prove. It is circular reasoning and does not hold up.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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No need to assume.

Now it would be nice if you evo....started explaining how something like the gear evolved

I already said that for the purpose of YOUR argument, we'll go ahead and assume evolution to be false.

Just to make you realise that lacking any alternative explanations, doesn't make YOUR particular assertion any more plausible.

You are still required to support YOUR claims.
 
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Kylie

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I already said that for the purpose of YOUR argument, we'll go ahead and assume evolution to be false.

Just to make you realise that lacking any alternative explanations, doesn't make YOUR particular assertion any more plausible.

You are still required to support YOUR claims.

Exactly.

I have a copy of the Silmarillion on my shelf that says the world was sung into existence by Eru and the Ainur, and that they created people and animals.

Of course, you're not going to believe that simply on my say so (but... I have this book...).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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.. my fists are not gears.

All you are doing is assuming the very thing you want to prove. It is circular reasoning and does not hold up.
It's also an example of an 'argument by semantics', a very popular fallacy in these parts, where what you call something has necessary implications for the named item. So if you label something with a word that is generally or exclusively used for human constructions or activities, the labelled object or activity must necessarily involve intelligent agency.

This trick or fallacy is most often used with 'design', but is used for all kinds of anthropomorphisms (e.g. if a single-cell creature can 'decide' or 'choose' an action without a brain, then consciousness/awareness/intelligence must be independent of brains!). Here it's 'gears' - if you call them 'gears' they must be intelligently designed and/or manufactured...

So let's call them 'interlocking projections' instead ;)
 
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Vaccine

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Can be accomplished by a non-intelligent and blind process like evolution.



Essentially an argument from ignorance, as it literally means "we don't know how this complexity arised, therefor it didn't arise"




False. Neither of them are used to identify human manufacturing.
Instead, human manufacturing is identified based on signs of manufacturing.

Specific alloys of metal, trademark engravings, signs of manipulation, etc.

Consider the difference between these two "rocks":

View attachment 184493

and

View attachment 184494

One has signs of manufacturing. The other doesn't. Can you tell wich?
How is human manufacture identified exactly?
 
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Vaccine

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Fallacious. This is asking for negative evidence.
That means that this "test" assumes that Behe's position is the default position and that it is to be accepted if no alternative explanation exists.

That is called "negative evidence". Also oftenly refered to as "shifting the burden of proof".

It is literally saying that "if you can't come up with another explanation, then my claims are correct". No. Your claims are correct if you can show them to be correct. Failing to provide an alternative is NOT "showing your claim to be correct".




This is again not adequate. This is, once again, just about trying to poke holes in an alternative explanation. It is, once again, negative evidence.

All of evolution can be shown incorrect later today and it wouldn't advance the case for ID for even an inch.




The discovery institute is not a proper scientific journal.



ID explains nothing. Explanatory power is not merely making claims and pretending they are correct.

Explanatory power is about testable predictions and practical applications.




At least one universe demonstrably exists.
Right out the gates, assuming more such universes exist is less of a leap then assuming gods exist, not one of which demonstrably exists.
Originally you asked me to support my claims. If you arbitrarily reject intelligent desinlgn theory it would be a fuitless discussion.
 
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Vaccine

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OK, Vaccine's suggestions for making irreducible complexity (or ID?) an adequate hypothesis make a good exercise...

The point of the abduction criteria is to compare hypotheses to determine which is the best explanation.

So to start, we need a clear statement of the hypothesis. Is it 'irreducible complexity' in one particular instance? Is it Intelligent Design in general?

What is the hypothesis we're assessing?

Only assuming his hypothesis is, "there is no realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present motor."

However, finding such a description is not a definitive test or falsification - it's open to debate because such a description would itself be an hypothesis. Falsification requires that you can make some real-world observation or experiment that shows the hypothesis to be wrong, such as finding a fossil mammal in the Cambrian.

Let's assume ID is the (ill-defined) hypothesis...

Without seeing the abstracts of the arguments on either side, I can only say that neither seem novel, definitive, or useful here, and their failures won't falsify either hypothesis.

As I understand it, the evolutionary argument is that we should expect to find some non-functional DNA (e.g. from mutation); we know that some of the non-coding DNA previously labelled 'junk' is functional, but there are still large swathes of DNA with no known function. The default is to assume non-functionality until shown otherwise. ENCODE suggests 80% has 'biological activity', but not all biological activity is 'functional'. Also, non-functional DNA can become functional through mutation, so the non-functional expectation is necessarily probabilistic rather than absolute.

Also, I see no explanation for why ID should necessarily predict that non-coding DNA is functional, but in any case, the ID proponents have not demonstrated that all non-coding DNA is functional (or that functional non-coding DNA implies ID).

BUT the evolutionary hypothesis does make a number of strong predictions that are definitely fruitful. That your source has selected a weak and indeterminate prediction for the comparison is telling in itself.

Seriously? I read the first two:

Meyer says says that experience ("experience-based analysis") tells him ID is "causally adequate" to explain the Cambrian explosion... Meh.

Behe concludes, "...decades of experimental laboratory evolution studies strongly suggest that, at the molecular level, loss-of-FCT and diminishing modification-of-function adaptive mutations predominate" (FCT is his code for a particular functional sequence) - right or wrong, it's not about ID.

A fruitful hypothesis makes novel predictions and gets them right. If that list contains such verified predictions, perhaps you could indicate which they are?

I previously explained why ID has no explanatory power; in addition to what the link mentions, a key disqualifier is when an hypothesis raises more questions than it answers, especially if those questions are unanswerable. ID is such an hypothesis. You can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

The multiverse is nothing to do with evolution. If you're comparing ID with evolution, ID introduces an additional (unexplained and inexplicable) entity, possibly with a lot of unstated extra baggage...

But if you do wish to compare ID with multiverse theories, it's worth noting that multiverse ideas don't necessarily involve infinite numbers of universes, and that they are not themselves scientific theories - they arise in or are implied by various physical theories. That said, the idea that the multiverse multiplies entities rests on a misunderstanding both of multiverse ideas and Occam's Razor...

Sean Carroll says the first part best:

"... we physicists sometimes muddy the waters by talking about “multiple universes” or “the multiverse.” These days, the vast majority of such mentions refer not to actual other universes, but to different parts of our universe, causally inaccessible from ours and perhaps governed by different low-energy laws of physics (but the same deep-down ones). In that case there may actually be an ensemble of local regions, and perhaps even some sensibly-defined measure on them. But they’re all part of one big happy universe."

And, for quantum mechanics:

"The MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) holds that we have a Hilbert space, and a wave function, and a rule (Schrödinger’s equation) for how the wave function evolves with time, and that’s it." (that link is the best explanation of it I've seen).

To put it romantically, they're all 'ripples' in the one universal wave function, and quantum superposition is a glimpse of alternate realities before they decohere and you see just one... wherefore theology now? ;)

As for Occam's Razor, in terms of competing theories it is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known.

In other words, the concern is with the simplicity of the theory itself, not with the simplicity of what it implies. For instance, the equations of relativity and quantum mechanics are simple (parsimonious), no matter that they entail views of physical reality that are much more complicated than the Newtonian view. This applies to multiverse ideas such as the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics (which is misunderstood in other ways too).
We can start with this:
Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI[complex-specified information]. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
 
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Speedwell

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We can start with this:
Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI[complex-specified information]. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
"Complex specified information" is a figment of William Dembski's imagination and no irreducibly complex biological structures have ever been identified.
 
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Vaccine

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No.

You are starting out with an assumption - namely, that all gears are the result of design.

You then say, here are some gear-like mechanisms in nature, therefore they are gears.

Then, you claim that since they are gears and since all gears are designed, then these gears must have a designer.

This is based on two assumptions:
1. All gears are designed
2. These are gears.

You have not provided anything to support your claim that all gears are designed. You have just made the claim, and you expect us to accept it on face value.

You have also stated that these are gears. However, a gear is a wheel with teeth, and wheels have axles, a rod passing through the central point around which the wheel can spin freely. Somehow, I doubt that is the case with these. Yes, they have teeth, but they can only rotate so far before they cannot rotate any further. By your logic, I can claim that my fists are gears, since I can make two fists and my knuckles interleave together like the teeth on a gear. I can even rotate them to a degree. But my fists are not gears.

All you are doing is assuming the very thing you want to prove. It is circular reasoning and does not hold up.
I take it you have an issue acknowledging "all gears are designed'.
Ask anyone on the street are gears designed? The answer almost always will be yes. Show a picture of gears on a bugs legs and suddenly, "all gears are designed" becomes conjecture. Gears, by definition, are designed. As has been pointed out, a cause is not identified by merely acknowledging design in nature is real. I just like people too give some critical thought about why they have such a hard time acknowledging that.
The creationist who denied a fossil sitting on the table in front of him was indeed a fossil needs to give some thought to that too.
 
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