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Evidence Genesis is just a fable

er72

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I would like to see some evidence that shows that Genesis is nothing but a fable or myth. It's fine if that is someone's interpretation, but all we have to appeal to is godless science. Isn't it idolatry to take man's opinion (science) and place it above God's Word? Apparently not, to the Christian Darwinists.

However, the problem is, the rest of scripture can easily be dismissed as stories, myths and fables too. Why stop at Genesis? Why not do the same with the gospels too? Why not dismiss any phrase or expression in the Bible we do not like as a mere myth and "not to be taken literally?" A literal resurrection? Nah. A literal crucifixion? Nope, just a metaphor for us dying to self. A literal Jesus? No. Just a metaphor for the Christ within us all (sounds strikingly New Age to me). A literal God? Nope; just an impersonal energy force, or the Universe itself. Where does it end?

If we're going to throw out the foundation of the Bible (Creation, sin, the Fall, the devil as a temptor), where do we stop? Why even bother stopping?

Evolution says there is no need for any supernatural entity to have caused the Big Bang, so why believe in a god at all - let alone the God of Christianity? Is fear of hell that strong? (What if hell's a myth and a metaphor for walking in spiritual darkness?) The list goes on.

These are questions for the Christian Darwinists I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to. But then, science has never had the answers for me. I don't worship science. I worship the True God of heaven and earth. Amen.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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I don't mean to be rude but you seem to make a lot of posts which basically reflect atheist arguments, despite claiming to be a Christian. The frequency and argumentative nature of your threads, despite the fact you're a new user, is making me suspect you're poe. Sorry. :|
 
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er72

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I don't mean to be rude but you seem to make a lot of posts which basically reflect atheist arguments, despite claiming to be a Christian. The frequency and argumentative nature of your threads, despite the fact you're a new user, is making me suspect you're poe. Sorry. :|

I'm a ghost from The Legend of Zelda? (Poe)

I am argumentative by nature. I am particularly so to people who do so back to me and who worship science above God. I would probably be far MORE antagonistic to anyone who tried arguing this with me in person, to be honest. I have a low tolerance for... well, nonsense.

But I can be respectful of others too. But there is a difference between respecting others and respecting Darwinism.

Evolution is the foundation of modern atheism. And having spent years of my academic life studying it, I know a few things about its ties to atheism. So perhaps my posts reflect that? I'm not ignorant when it comes to atheism, evolution or human nature. I earned a degree in it.

Now, if you're questioning my faith... then that is a different issue entirely.

The fact is, there is no compatibility between Christianity and evolution. You are simply trying to fit Christianity into the box that was made by atheistic men. But if that works for you...
 
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crawfish

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However, the problem is, the rest of scripture can easily be dismissed as stories, myths and fables too. Why stop at Genesis? Why not do the same with the gospels too? Why not dismiss any phrase or expression in the Bible we do not like as a mere myth and "not to be taken literally?" A literal resurrection? Nah. A literal crucifixion? Nope, just a metaphor for us dying to self. A literal Jesus? No. Just a metaphor for the Christ within us all (sounds strikingly New Age to me). A literal God? Nope; just an impersonal energy force, or the Universe itself. Where does it end?

If we're going to throw out the foundation of the Bible (Creation, sin, the Fall, the devil as a temptor), where do we stop? Why even bother stopping?

Two fallacies:

1) A non-literal creation story is "throwing it out". That's like saying if the good Samaritan was not a real person you'd have to throw out the entire story.

2) Accepting the creation story as non-literal means that you must consider other scripture non-literal as well. I heard a great quote the other day, "the bible is not a book, it's a library". That is a great way to look at it. Each individual book, and even parts within a book, should be evaluated on their own for genre and purpose and, yes, historical content.

Without those two bad arguments you have none. :)
 
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er72

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Two fallacies:

1) A non-literal creation story is "throwing it out". That's like saying if the good Samaritan was not a real person you'd have to throw out the entire story.

Incorrect, dude.

Where in the Bible does it say Genesis is a parable? Jesus said Himself that He spoke in parables to hide His wisdom from the common man.


2) Accepting the creation story as non-literal means that you must consider other scripture non-literal as well. I heard a great quote the other day, "the bible is not a book, it's a library". That is a great way to look at it. Each individual book, and even parts within a book, should be evaluated on their own for genre and purpose and, yes, historical content.

Without those two bad arguments you have none. :)

Weak argument.

Where is it said Genesis is a parable? What is your support for this, from the Bible? You have none.

You are using your science to interpret your Bible.
 
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er72

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"just a fable?"

What do you have against fables?

This modernist mindset needs to be lost if you're to read the Bible, which was, after all, written for a pre-modern audience.

Okay. So Jesus is a fable?

Then why do we believe in Him then?

I'd rather not believe in something untrue. But that's just me.
 
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Melethiel

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Okay. So Jesus is a fable?

Then why do we believe in Him then?

I'd rather not believe in something untrue. But that's just me.
You're putting words in people's mouth.

Nobody said Jesus is a fable.

I think you're an atheist trying to play with everyone, or have at least bought into atheist arguments...

If you're not willing to actually engage the arguments of the people who disagree with you, but instead must resort to twisting their words and ignoring the point, then you've already lost.
 
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er72

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You're putting words in people's mouth.

Then perhaps you should explain yourself better and answer the original post then.

Nobody said Jesus is a fable.

So He's not, but the rest is...? Who decides this?

I think you're an atheist trying to play with everyone, or have at least bought into atheist arguments...

I think you're a claiming to be a believer who does not believe God's word. Your point? See, I can play that game too.

As for "buying into their arguments"... um, that would assume I believed in your fables of evolution. Because I can argue evolution better than any Christian here, I'm not one? Uh, okay (?). But no. This will be one of the last posts I make defending myself or beliefs, but no, I'm no atheist. I could NEVER be an atheist.

But to anyone who does accept evolution, I do have to admit, that is a strong point for atheism. I see no way anyone could believe in evolution and claim to be a Christian. They are irreconcilable.


If you're not willing to actually engage the arguments of the people who disagree with you, but instead must resort to twisting their words and ignoring the point, then you've already lost.

Lost what?

What do I win?

I'm waiting for one person to put forth a good statement that shows how Genesis is a fable, how anything else in the Bible should be believed, and how picking and choosing your favorite passages can be compatible with Christianity. Because it all sounds like a big joke to me.
 
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Melethiel

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As long as you continue to accuse people of "picking and choosing," you're never going to get anywhere.

How about you show you're sincere and do some research on your own? The Oxford Annotated Bible has some good notes which will give you a good start in understanding literary styles.
 
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er72

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As long as you continue to accuse people of "picking and choosing," you're never going to get anywhere.

How about you show you're sincere and do some research on your own? The Oxford Annotated Bible has some good notes which will give you a good start in understanding literary styles.

Okay.

So where does Genesis become anything resembling actual history then, instead of being a fable or myth? What do you think?
 
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solarwave

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I would like to see some evidence that shows that Genesis is nothing but a fable or myth. It's fine if that is someone's interpretation, but all we have to appeal to is godless science. Isn't it idolatry to take man's opinion (science) and place it above God's Word? Apparently not, to the Christian Darwinists.

Godless science? Science was once (not so much now) done because it was believed that because God created the Universe the Universe should be intelligible. So I don't think it is wrong to use science to help us understand God, the Universe and the Bible. The Word is in fact Jesus Christ, and it is Him I worship, not the Bible.

Some Christians considered that the Genesis creation story could have been a spiritual myth rather than literal history because Darwin. Genesis 1 is set out like a poem with repeating patterns and numbers. The writting style then changes in Genesis 2 and 3 and becomes more myth like humans being made from ribs and talking snakes. Of course God COULD have made the world like that, but there are problems that the story creates.

My main point is that theistic evolutionists don't consider science to be above God or even necessarily the Bible. Science is generally better than personal opinion and tradition though and so can help guide us away from wrong interpretations of the Bible.

However, the problem is, the rest of scripture can easily be dismissed as stories, myths and fables too. Why stop at Genesis? Why not do the same with the gospels too? Why not dismiss any phrase or expression in the Bible we do not like as a mere myth and "not to be taken literally?" A literal resurrection? Nah. A literal crucifixion? Nope, just a metaphor for us dying to self. A literal Jesus? No. Just a metaphor for the Christ within us all (sounds strikingly New Age to me). A literal God? Nope; just an impersonal energy force, or the Universe itself. Where does it end?

Just because one story in the Bible isn't literally true it doesn't mean the whole thing isn't. Do you think the story of Job is history? Maybe you do, but many don't also. It can be understood as a reply to the problem of evil in the form of a story. This doesn't mean Jesus didn't rise from the dead though. There are 4 different stories of Jesus' life and also Paul saying that it is necessary to the Christian faith that Jesus rose from the dead.

If we're going to throw out the foundation of the Bible (Creation, sin, the Fall, the devil as a temptor), where do we stop? Why even bother stopping?

Even without the Genesis story the world was created, we sin, we all personally fall from grace and the devil still tempts. We don't need the creation story to tell us we have a problem. If you just gave someone a New Testament they could understand a good deal of the gospel.

These are questions for the Christian Darwinists I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to. But then, science has never had the answers for me. I don't worship science. I worship the True God of heaven and earth. Amen.

Nor do I worship science, but it does do well at explaning things, shown by my use of this computer. The Bible and the Universe are both revelations of God to some extent and both require interpretation, and science is what interprets the Universe.

I hope I don't sound like I am being arrogant at all in my post. :)
 
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Melethiel

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Okay.

So where does Genesis become anything resembling actual history then, instead of being a fable or myth? What do you think?
Depends how you define "actual history." If you mean that in the sense of a modern reporter's account, well, then, never. You don't really get close to that until 1 Kings.

The narratives in Genesis lay the foundation for God's relationship to Israel, not a blow-by-blow account of the early history of the world. But that doesn't mean they are "myths" - just that they are stories, with grounding in real people and events, that are told to emphasize a point.
 
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er72

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The Genesis creation accounts tell of talking snakes, magical trees, a personification of an omni-present God walking through a garden, and flaming swords. Maybe the question we should be asking is what evidence there is that Genesis ISN'T a fable.

Yeah, and elsewhere the Bible talks about a sea being parted, a rock giving forth water, the dead being raised, people's shadows healing the sick, the blind recovering sight and bones coming to life. I guess that is fake too.
 
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Melethiel

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Have you ever actually studied mythology? Some of those things clearly belong in the realm of mythology due to their symbolic nature, others do not. The context in which they are mentioned is also completely different.

And just so you know, symbolic =/= fake.
 
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er72

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Have you ever taken a course in mythology? Some of those things clearly belong in the realm of mythology due to their symbolic nature, others do not. The context in which they are mentioned is also completely different.

And just so you know, symbolic =/= fake.

Hades comes from Greek mythology, so I guess hell is not real.
 
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Mallon

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Yeah, and elsewhere the Bible talks about a sea being parted, a rock giving forth water, the dead being raised, people's shadows healing the sick, the blind recovering sight and bones coming to life. I guess that is fake too.
It also talks about the earth having corners, a sky that rolls up like a scroll, a man called a "rock", a "vine", and a "lamb", and people who soar on eagles' wings.

I'm suggesting that maybe the strict literalistic hermeneutic you adhere so tightly to ought to be reexamined in light of what the Bible actually says. You so strongly fear the slippery slope you think awaits you if you interpret some parts of the Bible as non-literal or ahistorical, but don't seem to have given much thought about the slippery slope that leads in the other direction when you insist that the Bible must be read in its entirety as a literal, newspaper-style document (a mindset which would have been completely foreign to the ancient Hebrews).
 
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er72

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It also talks about the earth having corners, a sky that rolls up like a scroll, a man called a "rock", a "vine", and a "lamb", and people who soar on eagles' wings.

I'm suggesting that maybe the strict literalistic hermeneutic you adhere so tightly to ought to be reexamined in light of what the Bible actually says. You so strongly fear the slippery slope you think awaits you if you interpret some parts of the Bible as non-literal or ahistorical, but don't seem to have given much thought about the slippery slope that leads in the other direction when you insist that the Bible must be read in its entirety as a literal, newspaper-style document (a mindset which would have been completely foreign to the ancient Hebrews).

I fear...? No. Unfortunately, I do not fear anything, let alone your erroneous belief in evolution. I fear you may be mistaken, but that would be the full extent of any said "fears."

That said, you are mistaken. I have no reason to deny Genesis 1 - 3 as anything but a mostly literal account. If you can provide concrete evidence otherwise, then so be it. But frankly, just saying "You can't interpret it that way" (says who?) is not really convincing me of anything.

If I took everything literally, I would believe in an angry, vengeful deity contained in the minds of many religious. Unfortunately, I do not. So you may want to get rid of the idea that I - or anyone else - takes the whole Bible literally. I take the parts literally that should be taken as such. The gospels contain literal accounts. But you say Creation is not. Yet you provide no evidence for saying such. (Because you wish to appeal to science rather than the simple truth written in the Bible.)
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I would like to see some evidence that shows that Genesis is nothing but a fable or myth. It's fine if that is someone's interpretation, but all we have to appeal to is godless science. Isn't it idolatry to take man's opinion (science) and place it above God's Word? Apparently not, to the Christian Darwinists.

However, the problem is, the rest of scripture can easily be dismissed as stories, myths and fables too. Why stop at Genesis? Why not do the same with the gospels too? Why not dismiss any phrase or expression in the Bible we do not like as a mere myth and "not to be taken literally?" A literal resurrection? Nah. A literal crucifixion? Nope, just a metaphor for us dying to self. A literal Jesus? No. Just a metaphor for the Christ within us all (sounds strikingly New Age to me). A literal God? Nope; just an impersonal energy force, or the Universe itself. Where does it end?

If we're going to throw out the foundation of the Bible (Creation, sin, the Fall, the devil as a temptor), where do we stop? Why even bother stopping?

Evolution says there is no need for any supernatural entity to have caused the Big Bang, so why believe in a god at all - let alone the God of Christianity? Is fear of hell that strong? (What if hell's a myth and a metaphor for walking in spiritual darkness?) The list goes on.

These are questions for the Christian Darwinists I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to. But then, science has never had the answers for me. I don't worship science. I worship the True God of heaven and earth. Amen.

You're mischaracterizing your opponents, and that's hardly living under God's Word, either.

Christians who adhere to theistic evolution take cues from science on how to interpret the Scriptures. However, one should never read the Scriptures in light of science of one's interpretation does violence to the text. That, however, is simply not the case with the biblical passages on human origins.

The modern evolutionary synthesis (the name of the scientific theory, not "Darwinism") demands an old universe as confirmed by astronomy and geology. It therefore suggests that the Scriptures would not present a contrary view if the Scriptures are indeed the revelation of the creator-God. As it so happens, the Scriptures demand neither a young universe (six-to-ten thousand years old) nor a literal six-day creation.

Genesis 1 presents itself as a poetic, literary framework (though not a poem per se). The six days correspond to three dual realities. Days one, two, and three deal with the creation of realms that are inhabited by the creator-rulers of days four, five, and six.

Day one portrays the creation of light and dark, which are ruled over by the sun and the moon of day four.

Day two portrays the creation of sky and sea, which are ruled over by the birds and fish of day five.

Day three portrays the creation of land, which is ruled over by animals and man of day six.

Day seven, finally, is a capstone where all creation comes together in the Sabbath rest.

The Priestly account in Genesis ch. 1 thus emphasizes themes important to ancient Israel.

The creator-God, Yahweh, created our world on purpose. Other ancient Near Eastern creation-myths depicted creation rising out of the chopped up remains of gods killed in primordial battle or from the biological refuse ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]) of gods. Such a creation is accidental. In Genesis 1, the God of Israel, the creator-God, Yahweh, creates on purpose.

In a similar vein, creation is orderly. There is a specific parallelism between rulers (sun and moon, fish and birds, animals and humans) and realms (day and night, sky and sea, and dry land with the plants upon it). The nations surrounding Israel believed that creation was an accident, which happened in a disorderly fashion after a prehistorical war (or mating) of the gods. Genesis 1 emphasizes that creation is orderly (and thus leads into Genesis 2 and 3, where we, not Yahweh, are at fault for screwing it up).

Furthermore, Genesis 1 stresses that Yahweh alone is a god, the only God. It does this by stressing that the creature-rulers are created by Yahweh with their own purposes rather than divine beings. We should all know that the ancient polytheists worshiped the sun (Egyptian Ra), the moon (Arabian Allah), bird-gods (Egyptian Horus), fish-gods (Moabite Chemosh), lion-gods (Ishtar), or bull-gods (Marduk). The first chapter of Genesis is, perhaps more than anything else, a beautiful poetic polemic against that most-offensive of sins, polytheism.

Last, the triple parallel of the days of realms and creature-rulers is capped off by the non-parallel day of the Sabbath, where all creation finds its consummation and rest. Obviously, the Sabbath was central to ancient Israelite (and modern Jewish) identity.

And, of course, it even has a refrain: "And God say that it was good. And it was evening, and it was morning. The Xth day." I'm sorry but it is has a refrain, its poetic, and you should never, ever take the order of stanzas literally in a poem.

So there you have it. Genesis 1 is not about our modern cosmological/scientific concerns, but about the concerns of the ancient Israelite community in which it was written. By taking it literally, you actually do damage to the text. You take away from the great themes of ancient Israel by using it in your own private war against science- a concern that has a lot more to do with finding counter-identity in a postmodern world than with affirming the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And speaking of the gospel of Jesus Christ...

However, the problem is, the rest of scripture can easily be dismissed as stories, myths and fables too. Why stop at Genesis? Why not do the same with the gospels too? Why not dismiss any phrase or expression in the Bible we do not like as a mere myth and "not to be taken literally?" A literal resurrection? Nah. A literal crucifixion? Nope, just a metaphor for us dying to self. A literal Jesus? No. Just a metaphor for the Christ within us all (sounds strikingly New Age to me). A literal God? Nope; just an impersonal energy force, or the Universe itself. Where does it end?
This is why your argument, an attempt at reductio ad absurdum, fails miserably. Theistic evolutionists do not simply take Genesis 1 non-literally in order to accommodate science; they do so because the text itself prompts them to find its far more important themes in its poetic, Psalm-like structure specifically by taking it non-literally.

The same cannot be said to be true for the gospels. The gospels definitely have message in their structure, and the evangelists have certainly ordered episodes in order to emphasize their four distinct themes (the three desert temptation narratives, for instance, occur in different orders in Matthew and Luke). However, all of them promote a single message that compels belief in a historical narrative wherein the problem of the exile and human sinfulness and God's covenant faithfulness are summed up in the historical crucifixion and historical resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The trouble with both your view and the view of someone who would make metaphors out of both is that instead of letting each individual text speak for itself and reveal itself in unique ways, you and the allegorist would rather have the text smashed into a single format. That simply doesn't do justice to the diverse forms and beauty contained within the literary heritage of Israel and the first Christians.

Boo ya.
 
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