Evidence for or against a creation instituted sabbath

[Cribstyl]

I don't know why I'm responding once again but here goes.

The Law points out sin, which in turn brings condemnation. This condemnation remains until someone can take it away. This is where Jesus comes in.

No one is declaired righteouse by the Law because the Law points out sin. Righteousness comes from Jesus. We can practice righteousness because we have been made righteous through the blood of Christ.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

We can't be made righteous by the Law.

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Just because someone has been justifed does not mean sin is no longer sin.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

I know this is hard for you to grasp because you have not completed your study of these things. You've only gone as far as the cross but Jesus tells us there is more after the cross.

1 John 2:6 Those who say they abide in God should live their lives as Christ did.

Luke 9:23 Then Jesus said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

When I read your presentation I dont see it as a SDA belief but simply your opinion. Having others take sides does not bother me until they accuse me of attacking SDA beliefs. Why do they remain silent and not clarify or reenforce your words? The few that say Amen, offer no insight or comments. Is this the Gospel? What doctrine is this called?

 

[Cribstyl]

It's very easy to expose the flaw in those who believe the Law is done away with. All you have to do is ask them if it's okay for their wives to have a sexual relationship outside of their marriage or ask them to tell how they understand the new covenant. Both answers they give you will reveal their confusion, also known as, Babylon.

:o:o:o Dude,,,,,,,,,,,,Ths is highly offensive to the ultimate.

 

[stork321]

Hopefully we can have a dialog on what we find in the scriptures we can offer as evidence "for" or "against" a creation instituted sabbath.

The purpose of this thead is to allow biblical evidence to speak rather than commentary that can overide or ignor what God's word does say or could prove.

Evidence should be what God's prophets say or writen in the OT, and what the NT say about the sabbath or related issue of creation.

Please provide book and text# as minimun evidence with your comments.

Please give a title to your post saying YES or NO

Thanks for your cooperation in advance.

God created the Sabbath on the seventh day.....Yes! He made the Sabbath!...however He made the Sabbath not by work, but by ceasing from it..God rested on the seventh day, and by doing so, He created the Sabbath. He then blessed and set apart the seventh day...

"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God" (exodus 20:10).....notice the word seventh day...back to the creation God rested,blessed and sanctified the seventh day..

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

It's clear that God Blessed and hallowed the sabbath day...sabbath day is the seventh day..

God did not finished his creation week in 6 days....He still continued in the seventh day....he ceased from His works...blessed and sanctified the seventh day...creating the sabbath day...

 

[k4c]

:o:o:o Dude,,,,,,,,,,,,Ths is highly offensive to the ultimate.

What do you find offensive?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Dude, bravo you havent changed at all........You've been falsely accusing me from day one. Do you have anything dated to charge against me?? Press the complaint button
Go ahead insult me some more. All I asked is that we show proof from God's word one way or the other.

Crib, since we had our reconciliation, I have tried to address you in a brotherly fashion. I have not agreed with you but have not insulted you since that time, please accept my apology if you felt that way.

 

[Cribstyl]

Crib, since we had our reconciliation, I have tried to address you in a brotherly fashion. I have not agreed with you but have not insulted you since that time, please accept my apology if you felt that way.

Communication is the key.....Jesus said love your enemies, do good to those who spitefully use you...... I see that as His law, So I dont have reason to hate anybody.
This thread was a lynch mob yesterday, and all I wanted to do was reference the bible verse that present God's word on our discussion.

I had envisioned compiling at least several scriptures from Gen-Rev that makes a case for or against a creation institute sabbath.

I read my bible constantly and I see dots that dont connect. If the voices of other prophets are heard maybe the picture would become clearer to each of us.

 

[k4c]

God created the Sabbath on the seventh day.....Yes! He made the Sabbath!...however He made the Sabbath not by work, but by ceasing from it..God rested on the seventh day, and by doing so, He created the Sabbath. He then blessed and set apart the seventh day...

"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God" (exodus 20:10).....notice the word seventh day...back to the creation God rested,blessed and sanctified the seventh day..

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

It's clear that God Blessed and hallowed the sabbath day...sabbath day is the seventh day..

God did not finished his creation week in 6 days....He still continued in the seventh day....he ceased from His works...blessed and sanctified the seventh day...creating the sabbath day...

All commentary!!!

I have proof that God didn't make a seventh day nor did He bless it. I know you won't believe me just because the Bible says God did bless the seventh day at it's creation. You guys are just against me. All I'm trying to do is lead God's people. astray but you guys won't let me. I tried to be your friend but you won't let me. Dude, I'm highly offended...

 

[Stryder06]

What you've failed to figure out is, when we fight people do notice, and yes, it's kinda embarassing.
If I had an agenda.....now would be a good time to post it..
I COME IN PEACE


If an alien land on earth would you take time to ask him "What do you know about God and Jesus Christ?" or would you tell Him to "get of my planet ?"



Let God's word be true

If aliens landed they'd be demons so an introduction to God wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Stryder06]

I dont buy into this Stryder because none of it is truth. I post God's word in blue and I try to explain my understanding what it says. What I call commentary is when someone makes a statement and the scripture sometimes discard the context and dont fit the comments. There is only one truth.

When you're playing defense How could someone say you've struck out?
What's stopping the person I responded to from replying in any thread?

Where is your voice when someone create a thread called "why?" and say that people teach "sin is no longer sin"?

I often get ingored when I respond or ask real questions, but I'm always chasing down questions that the bible does not ask.

Our last interaction proves that you took offense and ran off without explaining or givng a reasonable response to my post why?
I 'm not overly shocked you're here to try to derail the intent of this thread.



Let God's word be true

I'm not trying to derail anything. What you're doing here is akin to me going into a catholic forum and telling them that "I come in peace" and then start a thread about the pope.

We know the same scriptures you do, but as you said before, our understandings differ. As such it's really up to us to allow the Spirit to bring conviction. I don't run away from your posts Crib, I've just decided not to engage in meaningless discussions about things regarding my faith that I refuse to compromise on. It's really just that simple.

All you need do is cross reference the 4th commandment with Gen 2:2.

 

[Cribstyl]

God created the Sabbath on the seventh day.....Yes! He made the Sabbath!...however He made the Sabbath not by work, but by ceasing from it..God rested on the seventh day, and by doing so, He created the Sabbath. He then blessed and set apart the seventh day...

"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God" (exodus 20:10).....notice the word seventh day...back to the creation God rested,blessed and sanctified the seventh day..

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

It's clear that God Blessed and hallowed the sabbath day...sabbath day is the seventh day..

God did not finished his creation week in 6 days....He still continued in the seventh day....he ceased from His works...blessed and sanctified the seventh day...creating the sabbath day...

Thank you for your cooperation to the OP, you've made the first requested response.
I have aborted what I thought would be a timeline of scriptures to consider that connect some dots on the topic I chose.
My objectives was no to go toe to toe in opposition to what everybody would post. The reason I wanted us to show more EVIDENCE than just argument about Gen 2:1-3, is because I found some scripture with what I consider as strong EVIDENCE of what God commanded the Children of Israel before Sinai.

Contrary to popular beliefs, I'm trying to find scriptures to believe in rather than what is being repeated without being shaken. I'd be a fool to abbandon what I know for uncertainty.

Thanks for your respectful cooperation

 

[Cribstyl]

I'm not trying to derail anything. What you're doing here is akin to me going into a catholic forum and telling them that "I come in peace" and then start a thread about the pope.

If you said I started a thread on Ellen White you'd have a point. I started this thread asking for biblical EVIDENCE and all ell broke loose.
I want my faith to stand on every word from the mouth of God. I am not ashamed about my intentions by starting this thread.
I abort because of the poison and fear initiated by posters #2 and #3.
After heartfelt research...I should not have initiated this topic.
Research can also prove that this topic is constanly implied while hoping to talk about other doctrines. So I tried set the floor for a fair and balanced discussion based on scriptures.

K4c is the Threadmiester who creates most of the dialogs here. When I ask him a question or respond to his post, I make enemies because I'm trying to make sense of God's word. I find his comments dragging the texts for keywords. I discuss what is written vs what he's saying. His subject is always about the law or the sabbath. HE IGNORS DIRECT RESPONSES TO MY RESPONSES. (almost any thread will show that I first address the OP from top down).

If I am looking for answers? Why should you be the one to ask all the questions? You know in your heart that some threads are loaded to undermine what others believe.


This topic is an original idea.... I was hoping to get text from all over the bible that points to a creation instituted sabbath or against. I did not expect to get much responses against unless I posted some of coarse. I'm not trying to fight.
I was not just looking for and exhaustive discussion on Gen 2:2,3., so maybe I did'nt make myself clear.

SDA are not the first sabbatarians or the majority in the sabbathkeeping world. Having studied with Rabbis I understand that sabbath is a blessing for those who keep it. Having recently posted about enjoying worship the last two weeks, is to show my heart is with you as a brother, not to hate or directly attack what you believe.

I've heard many explanations about Gen2:2,3.If I ask you to post scripture as EVIDENCE from the bible why should you be insulted because I filter out what I cant see what your comment are explaining.

When I ask questions it seem to me that some people get insulted. I am not responsible to God for accepting what I dont see in His word. AM I THE ONE BEATING THESE SUBJECT TO DEATH?

We know the same scriptures you do, but as you said before, our understandings differ. As such it's really up to us to allow the Spirit to bring conviction. I don't run away from your posts Crib, I've just decided not to engage in meaningless discussions about things regarding my faith that I refuse to compromise on. It's really just that simple.

All you need do is cross reference the 4th commandment with Gen 2:2.

Dude, our last correspondence prior to your attack on my character was in this thread #49 and ended with #95 .
If you find my dialogs as a "meaningless discussions" why have you sought my rebuttal, at times?
I actually hold you in high regards for your patience and I do respond humbly when offence is taken or given.

 

[Stryder06]

If you said I started a thread on Ellen White you'd have a point. I started this thread asking for biblical EVIDENCE and all ell broke loose.
I want my faith to stand on every word from the mouth of God. I am not ashamed about my intentions by starting this thread.
I abort because of the poison and fear initiated by posters #2 and #3.
After heartfelt research...I should not have initiated this topic.
Research can also prove that this topic is constanly implied while hoping to talk about other doctrines. So I tried set the floor for a fair and balanced discussion based on scriptures.

K4c is the Threadmiester who creates most of the dialogs here. When I ask him a question or respond to his post, I make enemies because I'm trying to make sense of God's word. I find his comments dragging the texts for keywords. I discuss what is written vs what he's saying. His subject is always about the law or the sabbath. HE IGNORS DIRECT RESPONSES TO MY RESPONSES. (almost any thread will show that I first address the OP from top down).

If I am looking for answers? Why should you be the one to ask all the questions? You know in your heart that some threads are loaded to undermine what others believe.


This topic is an original idea.... I was hoping to get text from all over the bible that points to a creation instituted sabbath or against. I did not expect to get much responses against unless I posted some of coarse. I'm not trying to fight.
I was not just looking for and exhaustive discussion on Gen 2:2,3., so maybe I did'nt make myself clear.

SDA are not the first sabbatarians or the majority in the sabbathkeeping world. Having studied with Rabbis I understand that sabbath is a blessing for those who keep it. Having recently posted about enjoying worship the last two weeks, is to show my heart is with you as a brother, not to hate or directly attack what you believe.

I've heard many explanations about Gen2:2,3.If I ask you to post scripture as EVIDENCE from the bible why should you be insulted because I filter out what I cant see what your comment are explaining.

When I ask questions it seem to me that some people get insulted. I am not responsible to God for accepting what I dont see in His word. AM I THE ONE BEATING THESE SUBJECT TO DEATH?
Dude, our last correspondence prior to your attack on my character was in this thread #49 and ended with #95 .
If you find my dialogs as a "meaningless discussions" why have you sought my rebuttal, at times?
I actually hold you in high regards for your patience and I do respond humbly when offence is taken or given.

Please do excuse my "Attacks" if that's how they came off. Just from our past experiences, it doesn't seem as if you're trying to see what I see. As such when we have our exchanges it seems like we're always going down the same road. You're looking for evidence and it's been given to you, but because you don't see a text that says "Creation instituted sabbath" you knock our explanations, call them commentary, and essentially dismiss them. This makes it hard to carry on a conversation because one is left asking "Well what else does he want"?

I don't think the bible has to have an "abundance" of "evidence" regarding the sabbath in creation. It's a simple thing really. We see that the seventh day was blessed at the end of creation. We then see that God tells the Israelites to remember the sabbath day and to keep it holy. The 4th commandment calls the seventh day the sabbath of the Lord our God. That's all the evidence I need, and I'd like to think all that you would need. It being a sign between Him and Israel is secondary to the fact that the day is His day.

I know that's a bunch of commentary, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with this. The Lord laid claim to the seventh day, made it holy, and sanctified it. That has to be accepted first before we can make any progress.

 

[Cribstyl]

Please do excuse my "Attacks" if that's how they came off.

I love you as a brother and I know you as a man of integrity. I value your opinion even when I disagree with you.

Just from our past experiences, it doesn't seem as if you're trying to see what I see. As such when we have our exchanges it seems like we're always going down the same road. You're looking for evidence and it's been given to you, but because you don't see a text that says "Creation instituted sabbath" you knock our explanations, call them commentary, and essentially dismiss them. This makes it hard to carry on a conversation because one is left asking "Well what else does he want"?

That's not truth, I do read and understand what you and others explain about Genesis 2:2,3. I could post so many different thing people say about those two verses.
My problem is "I'm a sola scripture nutcase". I'd rather read 2Chapter arround a subject and say what's there, or factor in what other prophets, God, jesus or apostle reveal. It is proven in scripture that they had these exact words in Genesis 2:2,3 as we do now. My plan for this thread was for US to show EVIDENCE from throughout the bible that spoke about what God did and what God wanted people to do in certain ages. Yes I expected argument, but scripture should have the power.


The fact that I notice in chapter 1 and 2.......
1. (Gen 1:3 - Gen 6:5)
'And God" and God, and God, and God, and God, and God, and God. It's all about what God is doing each day, "not man".... If you cant show where what's man supposed to do is mention in Gen2:1-3 why should I think of man resting with God?

You're telling me that blessing and sanctifying the seventh day is for man to keep it.....
The bible tells me.....that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day because He rested from all His works He had made.
I have a choice to between two opinions. (your opinion see a commandment for man to keep all future 7th days. Comments say Adam kept it, Abraham kept it...and God only reminded the COI, Jesus is Lord of it. ) People get upset when I ask for texts and reject the attached commentary design to change what scriptures say in context.

When I ask SDA member: was it only that seventh day of creation blessed and sanctified or was the all the following weekly 7day blessed and sanctified? (No response, new topic, anger,)
I have to ask if God worked other days if Adam rested with Him. (ignor)
I have to ask about sabbaths in heaven comming before God even rested the seventh day. (no answers)

I hate to even raise questions that scripture does not present about the beginning of the bible. Is God's word that confusing or are we changing what is written?

I don't think the bible has to have an "abundance" of "evidence" regarding the sabbath in creation. It's a simple thing really. We see that the seventh day was blessed at the end of creation. We then see that God tells the Israelites to remember the sabbath day and to keep it holy. The 4th commandment calls the seventh day the sabbath of the Lord our God. That's all the evidence I need, and I'd like to think all that you would need. It being a sign between Him and Israel is secondary to the fact that the day is His day.

Creation institution is always implied with confidence by SDA, but the debate is still out there........
I never look at keeping sabbath as a sin but a as a gift, and a blessing. Having you tell me if I dont keep the sabbath I'm sinning against God is un scriptual. We have a conflicting understanding about what is written in the scriptures.

I know that's a bunch of commentary, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with this. The Lord laid claim to the seventh day, made it holy, and sanctified it. That has to be accepted first before we can make any progress.

Every word that procedes from the mouth of God is helpful for truth.

Thanks for posting Stryder

 

[Stryder06]

I love you as a brother and I know you as a man of integrity. I value your opinion even when I disagree with you.
That's not truth, I do read and understand what you and others explain about Genesis 2:2,3. I could post so many different thing people say about those two verses.
My problem is "I'm a sola scripture nutcase". I'd rather read 2Chapter arround a subject and say what's there, or factor in what other prophets, God, jesus or apostle reveal. It is proven in scripture that they had these exact words in Genesis 2:2,3 as we do now. My plan for this thread was for US to show EVIDENCE from throughout the bible that spoke about what God did and what God wanted people to do in certain ages. Yes I expected argument, but scripture should have the power.


The fact that I notice in chapter 1 and 2.......
1. (Gen 1:3 - Gen 6:5)
'And God" and God, and God, and God, and God, and God, and God. It's all about what God is doing each day, "not man".... If you cant show where what's man supposed to do is mention in Gen2:1-3 why should I think of man resting with God?

You're telling me that blessing and sanctifying the seventh day is for man to keep it.....
The bible tells me.....that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day because He rested from all His works He had made.
I have a choice to between two opinions. (your opinion see a commandment for man to keep all future 7th days. Comments say Adam kept it, Abraham kept it...and God only reminded the COI, Jesus is Lord of it. ) People get upset when I ask for texts and reject the attached commentary design to change what scriptures say in context.

When I ask SDA member: was it only that seventh day of creation blessed and sanctified or was the all the following weekly 7day blessed and sanctified? (No response, new topic, anger,)
I have to ask if God worked other days if Adam rested with Him. (ignor)
I have to ask about sabbaths in heaven comming before God even rested the seventh day. (no answers)

I hate to even raise questions that scripture does not present about the beginning of the bible. Is God's word that confusing or are we changing what is written?

Crieation institution is always implied in confidence but the debate is still out there........
I never look at keeping sabbath as a sin but a as a gift, and a blessing. Having you tell me if I dont keep the sabbath I'm sinning against God is un scriptual. We have a conflicting understanding about what is written in the scriptures.
Every word that procedes from the mouth of God is helpful for truth.
Thanks for posting Stryder

There's a lot here to respond to and I don't have the time right now, but a couple of tidbits to chew on.

You say you're a sola scriptura nutcase" so am I. Think about it like this: No where in Genesis do we read that Adam and Eve was married, and I'm almost positive that They aren't referred to as husband and wife in the bible. With that being the case, how could you defend the notion that they were married using scripture alone?

As far as not keeping sabbath being a sin, that isn't unscriptural, but that get's us in to murkier water then I can wade through right now. Suffice it to say that God's choosen people are suppose to keep all His commandments, and God isn't the kind of God who has to ammend His law for the benefit of His people. If God creates a medicine for you, and you refuse to take it, that doesn't make the medicine bad and it doesn't require God to make a new form of that medicine. He may decide however a different way to administer it, but He won't change the medicine itself.

 

[Cribstyl]

There's a lot here to respond to and I don't have the time right now, but a couple of tidbits to chew on.

You say you're a sola scriptura nutcase" so am I. Think about it like this: No where in Genesis do we read that Adam and Eve was married, and I'm almost positive that They aren't referred to as husband and wife in the bible. With that being the case, how could you defend the notion that they were married using scripture alone?

Dude, God commanded marriage in the DNA of man by scripture alone, with these words.......(I wish the same was done with the sabbath.)
Gen 2:24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Jesus references these exact word in Genesis Chapter 2 confirming marriage as a creation ordinance
Mat 19:4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mat 19:7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jesus words is EVIDENCE that commandments about divorce written in the law was not given at creation, but first given to Moses.
Are there other commandments we can say was first given at Sinai?

What theories are out there about the law before Sinai?
If those theories are true why does the EVIDENCE in Rom seem to contradict their comments? : Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

.............................................................................

Jesus prove in other text that Angels dont marry so, Is that not EVIDENCE of marriage beginning with Adam and Eve?

As far as not keeping sabbath being a sin, that isn't unscriptural, but that get's us in to murkier water then I can wade through right now. Suffice it to say that God's choosen people are suppose to keep all His commandments, and God isn't the kind of God who has to ammend His law for the benefit of His people. If God creates a medicine for you, and you refuse to take it, that doesn't make the medicine bad and it doesn't require God to make a new form of that medicine. He may decide however a different way to administer it, but He won't change the medicine itself.

What God requires of Christian is clearly written and told by many apostles in the scriptures. Sabbathkeeping was not one of them. Jesus tapped Peter to feed it, Stephen to die preaching it and Paul as an Apostle to the Gentiles to teach doctrines and James and John bares witness by letters.

 

[Torah]

Hopefully we can have a dialog on what we find in the scriptures we can offer as evidence "for" or "against" a creation instituted sabbath.

The purpose of this thead is to allow biblical evidence to speak rather than commentary that can overide or ignor what God's word does say or could prove.

Evidence should be what God's prophets say or writen in the OT, and what the NT say about the sabbath or related issue of creation.

Please provide book and text# as minimun evidence with your comments.

Please give a title to your post saying YES or NO

Thanks for your cooperation in advance.

G-d’s reckoning of time
The first thing we learned was that G-d’s reckoning of time was not the same as the Greek reckoning of time.
G-d states in Gen 1: 5, 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, & 1:31
[“There was evening, and there was morning--the first day.”] The day starts at evening goes through the day and ends at evening. This is G-ds reckoning of time.
Also in Gen 1: 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, [and let them serve as signs to mark “seasons” and days and years,]

The word “SEASONS” in Hebrew is “MOEDIM” this word means “APPOINTED FEAST” or HOLIDAYS. The planetary structure points to and regulates the Feast of G-d. The Moedim=Feast are first and foremost part of the creative order of
G-d. And not merely part of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. And first and foremost in G-ds creative order was and is, Shabbat.

NOW! Matthew 5:17-18 says “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, [The planetary structure / “MOEDIM” is still there. So nothing has changed] not thesmallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

But how did the Greek / Gentiles change it to Sunday? Just look at History!

At the end of the book of Acts we are left with a picture of Christianity still in the cradle of Judaism, still a part of Judaism, a sect within it. Paul is left as a prisoner in the city of Rome and he is ministering to the believers in Rome. It is about the year 65 AD. Within two years, Paul goes to meet the Master when he is beheaded by Emperor Nero. A short time later, Peter too finds martyrdom in Rome when Nero has him crucified. Nero then added to his infamy by launching a massive military campaign against the Jewish state. He sent the dreaded 10th legion under the famous general Vespasian.

After Nero's death and Vespasian was made Emperor, his son Titus carried on the war by bringing the Roman army against Jerusalem.

The armies came and the believers fled. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed, the Temple was burned and the Jewish believers in Judea and Jerusalem either fled in exile to Transjordan or were carried off in captivity and sold as slaves along with their Jewish brothers and sisters.

The Church that was the Assembly of the Book of Acts, the Assembly of the Apostles, under James the Righteous ceased to be.

Previously, when questions of law and practice, or disputes of theology had arisen, we sent to Jerusalem to find a decision from the Apostles, the disciples and the elders at Jerusalem. After 70 there is no Jerusalem. There is no Jerusalem church. There is no Authority. No one is there to answer our questions.
Remember, there was still no New Testament for us to turn to. The Gospels had just been or were still being written. Paul's letters had not been compiled yet.John's epistles were not even written yet. Imagine our situation. What to do do?

 

[Torah]

Part 2

Who can answer my questions about faith and observance? Without the Jerusalem church, where should we look for leadership and guidance...unless it is to the Church in the Capital City of the World, the city where Paul and Peter, most famous of the apostles served and were martyred? Thus the Roman Church became our new Authority by default.

What do we know about this Roman Church? We know they were troublemakers because 20 years earlier, when Claudius was Emperor, there was such a disturbance raised by the believers that he exiled all the Jews from Rome. All the Jews were exiled, not just the believers. Priscilla and Aquila were among those exiled. If all the Jews were exiled from the church at Rome, who was left? Only Gentiles. So as Jewish believers returned to Rome, they were returning to a Gentile dominated church, which was not really a problem until Rome went to war with the Jews.

. The politics of anti-Semitism begin taking root.

Emperor Vespasian followed up the Jewish war by imposing a heavy, punitive annual tax upon all Jewish households in the Empire. Jewish households are determined as households who worship after the Jewish manner. Now we have a financial, a political and a cultural incentive to distance ourselves from Judaism.

Shortly after the Jewish War and the destruction of Jerusalem, the synagogues throughout the world introduced a 19th blessing into the 18 blessings of the Amidah. The 19th blessing was actually a curse on believers. Along with the introduction of the 19th blessing came the ruling that anyone in the synagogue that did not say the 19th blessing was to be put out of the synagogue. Thus the believers were expelled from Jewish assembly.

Not only did our Gentile pals resent us because we were essentially Jewish, but our Jewish pals resented us because we were believers. This excommunication was deeply offensive and created deep animosity towards Jews (even among Jewish believers) who are already none too popular through the Empire. What is worse, we were left with no place to assemble on Shabbat, or to assemble at all.
Years went by as the now largely Gentile dominated Church struggled to identify herself. She was plagued by heresies and persecutions. Around the turn of the century, the new Emperor, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, was afraid of another Jewish revolt. He unleashed a series of persecutions against the believers. In that wave of persecutions, John, the last apostle, was exiled to Patmos.

Understand what was happening. On the one hand, you and your family have been thrown out of the synagogue because you are offensive to Judaism, and on the other hand you are seeing your friends and family imprisoned, even tortured and killed because they are being identified with the Jewish religion. You are guilty by association with a religion that doesn't want you associating with them.

The Second Century

By the time the second century began, anti-Jewish sentiment was so high in the church and especially the Roman church that the Gentiles no longer want to be associated with Jews at all. Theologically, they decided that had replaced the Jews as the true Israel. they decided that they were now the true people of God, and that Jews are consigned to damnation and everlasting cursedness from God.

The first century believers are long dead and gone. A new generation has been raised to view Jews and even Jewishness as the absolute antithesis of Christianity.

It was the last break between the believers and Judaism.

The Church Fathers
the generation of Gentile believers who lived through the second Jewish revolt the Church Fathers. Men like Ignatius wrote an epistle to the congregations of Asia (where John had lived and served just three decades before) and said to them,

"Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness...But let every one of you keep the Sabbath in a spiritual manner...not in relaxation, not in eating things prepared the day before, not in finding delight in dancing and clapping which have no sense in them." (Epistle to the Magnesians)

What does he mean? Why does he have to prohibit Second Century believers from keeping the Sabbath? Because they were still keeping Sabbath. Despite all the adversity, they were still keeping Sabbath in John's and Paul's congregations.

In the same era men like the author of the epistle of Barnabas arise. The Epistle of Barnabas is a certain forgery that is alleged to be written by Barnabas, Paul's traveling companion. It is actually a flagrantly anti-Semitic, anti-Torah, anti-Jewish piece of replacement theology literature. He describes the Jews as wretched men deluded by an evil angel (i.e. the God of the OT) abandoned by God, and their Sabbath is only an allegory to point to the resurrection of Christ, which occurs on the 8th day.

It is in this era that we have the first record of Christians proselytizing Jews. We have a Christian-Jewish Dialogue in the form of a polemic between Trypho and Justin Martyr, a famous debate that reveals to us how far the Roman believers had already divorced themselves from Judaism and even from the Scriptures.

Justin Martyr explained to Trypho (and all the Jews) that the Torah was given to them as a punishment for their exceptional wickedness and because of God's special hatred for Jews. He said, "We, too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days and in a word all your festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and your hardness of heart." Surprisingly, Justin didn't win too many Jewish converts!

And at the same time that these men were holding their sway over the developing church, we saw the rise of the great heretic Marcion. He came sweeping through the church with his new doctrine that the Jesus of the New Testament had defeated and unseated the evil god of the Jews, and therefore the Hebrew Scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) and any Jewish relics in the Christian faith needed to be expelled. He compiled the very first New Testament. He was wildly popular, stunningly influential and his teachings remained rooted even after he was denounced for his heresies. If you are a Nazi or anti-Semite, perhaps the best repository of anti-Jewish and just downright hateful literature you could find to justify yourself is in the writings of the 2nd Century Church.

Resurrection Sunday

Meanwhile an annual remembrance of the resurrection of Messiah had emerged in Christian practice. It occurred every year on the Sunday that followed Passover. The Torah calls it the Feast of the Barley Omer, but the Christians simply knew it as the day of the Resurrection. The Roman church, in fact, ordered all churches to quit keeping Passover and to only keep this annual resurrection festival. It was a great controversy because once again, the churches of Asia (the congregations of Paul and John) did not want to play ball with Roman authority. They wanted to keep Passover as they always had, but in the end the authority of Rome prevailed.
Part of the fallout of the controversy was that Sunday was elevated while all Jewish elements, festivals and days, were eliminated. It became a Christian innovation to fast on the Sabbath and rejoice on Sunday as a weekly celebration of the annual Sunday resurrection festival. Sunday came to be celebrated as a weekly, mini-Roman Easter.


If you are seeking truth! Search for yourself in the Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm



A little interesting facts on Mithraism the sun god.


. Mithra is the god of light
. Mithra was born of a mother-rock by a river under a tree
. Sunday was kept holy in honor of Mithra,
. The 25 December was observed as Mithra birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun,


It would have been easier to coincide Holidays that the pagans were use to getting off of work for there worship.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Great post Torah!!

I find history to be a fascinating accompaniment to scripture to allow us to see not only prophesy come to life but to provide context.

 

[Cribstyl]

G-d’s reckoning of time
The first thing we learned was that G-d’s reckoning of time was not the same as the Greek reckoning of time.
G-d states in Gen 1: 5, 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, & 1:31
[“There was evening, and there was morning--the first day.”] The day starts at evening goes through the day and ends at evening. This is G-ds reckoning of time.
Also in Gen 1: 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, [and let them serve as signs to mark “seasons” and days and years,]

The word “SEASONS” in Hebrew is “MOEDIM” this word means “APPOINTED FEAST” or HOLIDAYS. The planetary structure points to and regulates the Feast of G-d. The Moedim=Feast are first and foremost part of the creative order of
G-d. And not merely part of the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. And first and foremost in G-ds creative order was and is, Shabbat.

Torah, thank you for participating in this thread.
Ive only read and looked into the part above so far. As you know we're looking for scriptual EVIDENCE of a CREATION INSTITUTED SABBATH.
You made two points...God set time in motion from evening, to morning then, the first day end at evening.
"mow`ed" meaning "seasons" as used in Gen 1:14. The same word is used for feast in 23 texts in the Entire Bible but Gen 1:14 is clearly not one of them. It seems clear that when the sun and moon was set in thier places by God, it was to govern times, days, months, and "seasons," meaning the atmosphere that comes 4 times of a year.

 

[Cribstyl]

NOW! Matthew 5:17-18 says “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, [The planetary structure / “MOEDIM” is still there. So nothing has changed] not thesmallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

In trying to follow your train of thought, I cant find the word for season or feasts in Matt 5:17-18
I think you're saying here that the Torah has not changed....please correct me.

But how did the Greek / Gentiles change it to Sunday? Just look at History!

At the end of the book of Acts we are left with a picture of Christianity still in the cradle of Judaism, still a part of Judaism, a sect within it. Paul is left as a prisoner in the city of Rome and he is ministering to the believers in Rome. It is about the year 65 AD. Within two years, Paul goes to meet the Master when he is beheaded by Emperor Nero. A short time later, Peter too finds martyrdom in Rome when Nero has him crucified. Nero then added to his infamy by launching a massive military campaign against the Jewish state. He sent the dreaded 10th legion under the famous general Vespasian.

After Nero's death and Vespasian was made Emperor, his son Titus carried on the war by bringing the Roman army against Jerusalem.

The armies came and the believers fled. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed, the Temple was burned and the Jewish believers in Judea and Jerusalem either fled in exile to Transjordan or were carried off in captivity and sold as slaves along with their Jewish brothers and sisters.

The Church that was the Assembly of the Book of Acts, the Assembly of the Apostles, under James the Righteous ceased to be.

Previously, when questions of law and practice, or disputes of theology had arisen, we sent to Jerusalem to find a decision from the Apostles, the disciples and the elders at Jerusalem. After 70 there is no Jerusalem. There is no Jerusalem church. There is no Authority. No one is there to answer our questions.
Remember, there was still no New Testament for us to turn to. The Gospels had just been or were still being written. Paul's letters had not been compiled yet.John's epistles were not even written yet. Imagine our situation. What to do do?

Whoa, look what time it is, phew...we started at creation and walked right off the pages of the bible.