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Evidence for macroevolution

I believe most everyone participating in this forum agrees that "micro-evolution" is a fact. Only some of us advocate the position that common descent is well enough documented to be a fact. Only some of us agree that the evolution of novel features is well enough documented to be a fact.

Those who are in the second to groups: let's see some of the evidence! I'd like to see you discuss why this evidence supports macroevolution, and I'd like to see you discuss why it doesn't support any competing hypothesis, like Intelligent Design (in the cases where it doesn't).

I think a couple of the creationists (or other evolution-deniers) on this board have only a limited idea of what the evidence is, and I think it would be good to bring some of it right out into the open...

Remember, the creationists are none too trusting, so please, where possible, cite references from the literature that support your claims of evidence!

Have fun!
 
I guess I will go first. I will start small, with just a single tiny tidbit. Feel free to challenge the worth of this as evidence, but bear in mind that it is only a small fraction of the total evidence for common descent. It is not intended to represent conclusive evidence, so please do not respond as though it is. Treat it as a single piece of the puzzle and object only if you think it does not support evolution in any way (or if you think it supports another model better).

Evidence from primate biogeography and paleobiogeography:
Several independent lines of evidence can produce this partial phylogeny of the primate family:

+------------------->New World Monkeys
|
|
|
|
+------------------->Old World Monkeys
-------|
-------|
-------|---------+----->Orangatans
great--|---------|
apes---+---------|----+-->Gorillas
-----------------+----|
----------------------|--+--->Chimps
----------------------|--|
----------------------+--|
-------------------------+--->Humans

The modern biogeographical distributions of these groups are well known, and the biological relationships between these groups can be checked further by the location of fossil finds of each group.

Old World Monkeys and the great apes are restricted to Africa and Asia. New World Monkeys are restricted to South and Central America. This is explained by divergence of the two lines after the splitting off of South America from Africa when Pangaea broke apart. We can therefore predict that no fossil great apes will be found in the New World, and that any fossil candidates for common ancestors between the great apes will be found in Africa and Asia.

Based on any theory that does not depend on a "blood" relationship between those lines, we could make no similar prediction. There would be no reason to expect that there were never any apes in the Americas, since the continents of the West and those of the East were once joined. Furthermore, there would be no reason to expect that we shouldn't eventually find great apes similar to the ones of Africa and Asia that are indigenous to South America.

Among all the great apes, the only the humans inhabit the Americas, and those that the humans brought with them. Among all the great apes, only human remains are found in the Western Hemisphere, and those, only recent.

Candidates for human-chimp transitions, such as Australopithecus are found only in Africa (and a few others, most closely related to humans in Asia). Fossil candidates for Human/chimp-gorrila common ancestors, such as Aegyptopithecus and Proconsul are found only in Africa and Asia.

edited to add: Apparently my formatting of the phylogenetic diagram was lost... I hope you can make sense of it... I will try to fix it if I can figure out a way.
Fixed, sort of..
 
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I just noticed that Ray K had posted a good summary, hitting some of the high points of the evidence for evolution. Although the discussion immediately digressed to discuss other topics, and was eventually de-railed altogether, it looks like he put a lot of work into writing his summary, and it is well worth a look.

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10323
 
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I'm not sure if "is DUMB!!!" counts as evidence. Furthermore, I'm not sure if it counts as evidence for or against.
:D

Anyway, this was to be a thread about the evidence. The choice of terms was made to recognize the distinction drawn by those who deny that evolutionary changes have been or can be large and significant. If you do not recognize the distinction, even if it is an artificial one, you cannot argue against the conclusions based on it.
 
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seebs

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Just an obvious one: All the mammals have basically similar bone structures, which don't make any sense for most of them. e.g., our rib cage is really better designed for being horizontal than vertical, but we spend a lot of time vertical. The structures of the various legs in cats, dogs, and humans are more similar than makes any sense, unless we all derived them from similar basic structures. The degree of anatomical similarity between mammals is astounding - and not necessary for them to be successful in their niches. It certainly doesn't suggest that God makes mammals the same way - why would He do that, since there's no particular *advantage* to us in having the same basic bone structure as a cat? Had He been going about with a magic wand making things from scratch, we'd probably have much stronger hips, and cats would probably have different leg joints.
 
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Ray K

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Originally posted by seebs
Just an obvious one: All the mammals have basically similar bone structures, which don't make any sense for most of them. e.g., our rib cage is really better designed for being horizontal than vertical, but we spend a lot of time vertical. The structures of the various legs in cats, dogs, and humans are more similar than makes any sense, unless we all derived them from similar basic structures. The degree of anatomical similarity between mammals is astounding - and not necessary for them to be successful in their niches. It certainly doesn't suggest that God makes mammals the same way - why would He do that, since there's no particular *advantage* to us in having the same basic bone structure as a cat? Had He been going about with a magic wand making things from scratch, we'd probably have much stronger hips, and cats would probably have different leg joints.

I was told that animals with non-sensical anatomies (the platypus was the actual subject) were actually proof that God had "a sense of humor" :rolleyes:
 
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seebs

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They may well be proof that God has a sense of humor... On the other hand, he also has a sense of putting all the marsupials on an isolated body of land, as though the pouch thing had evolved there, and then they had split off.
 
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Bryne and Nichols (1999) did genetic and behavioral studies on mosquitoes in the London Underground and found that they were a reproductively isolated and genetically distinct from the parent population. There are noticable differences between the surface and underground populations, which can be characterized as macroevolutionary since speciation has occured.

ByrneNichols1999_T1.JPG
 
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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you hard evidence that evolution is mostly fantasy cooked up in the eye of those who behold the evidence. Quite ironically, as I recall, it started out exactly that way (or at least this story was part of its beginnings - I forget the whole story). As I recall, Darwin was inspired by some pigeon breeder who managed to get some really funky looking pigeons by breeding different varieties. Darwin "reasoned" from this (read: imagined) that, given enough time, nature could produce the kind of diversity in the species we now see.

The funny thing was that I recall some documentary on PBS recounting this story back when I still gave evolution about a 50/50 chance of being true. And what struck me about the pigeon story was that it demonstrated something quite different than what Darwin imagined. It demonstrated clearly (with no imagination required) that given an outside intelligent force (the breeder), one could achieve a good degree of diversity very quickly.

But my point here is not that pigeon breeding proves creation, but that there are often many ways to look at things. Evolutionists, however, tend to have blinders on (whether they are self-imposed, as Lewontin testifies, or not).

To demonstrate this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I offer you exhibit A:

Originally posted by seebs
The degree of anatomical similarity between mammals is astounding - and not necessary for them to be successful in their niches.

This would make me doubt evolution. After all, if mutation happens so often and so dramatically that out of a single source we can evolve into cats, elephants and men, why is it that these features which are not necessary for our success have survived through it all?

I can already hear the answer -- the fact that they were not necessary for our success means there were no needed changes.

So evolution assumes two very interesting things happening simultaneously. On the one hand, you have tiny successive mutations that turn things like a nose into an elephant's trunk, even though we have no way of proving a few million or even billion of those inbetween-nose-trunk mutations didn't actually hurt its success. We simply ASSUME that every minute mutation somehow miraculously helped its success because we have similar-to-reptile-mammals and we have elephants, and we simply BELIEVE that one must have turned into the other.

Oh, and let us not forget that we also believe that the millions of PREVIOUS mutations, even though they were only slightly different than the next ones, were somehow so different enough to be so unsuccessful that these half-nose-half-trunk went extinct in favor of 0.4999-nose-0.5001-trunk creatures, which went extinct when the 0.4998-nose-etc creatures evolved.

No, perhaps I've got that wrong. These minor successive mutations don't NEED to be better than the last ones, because they're smart enough to see the future and know that a trunk is eventually going to be useful.

Meanwhile, on the other hand, you have all those other "anatomical similarities" which aren't mutating hardly at all. Now someone might think that they're not mutating because they were created. But as the trunk demonstrates, evolutionists know that random mutation is smarter than God. These genes are failing to mutate simply because they know enough about the future not to bother. Why should they bother mutating when they know in advance that they aren't going to contribute to the animal's success?

Obviously, the art of evolution is to balance advantage/mutation/selection/extinction perfectly in your imagination in such a way as to provide a link between any two things, regardless of how the balance causes contradictions in your reasoning.

And to demostrate that point, let's take a look at exhibit B:

It certainly doesn't suggest that God makes mammals the same way - why would He do that, since there's no particular *advantage* to us in having the same basic bone structure as a cat?

As I said, good jury, the evidence -- heck, even the reasoning -- means nothing. It's all in the eye of the beholder. So it doesn't matter what evidence you present. People will see what they want to see, and return the verdict they want to return.
 
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chickenman

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actually in many instances, large changes can happen through a single mutation npeterly, a small subset of genes can have large impacts on morphology. Developmental genes in particular, small changes in homeobox genes in drosophila for instance, can give a fly an extra set of wings. You don't need a whole lot of intermediate mutations to get this to happen, you only need one
 
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Originally posted by chickenman
small changes in homeobox genes in drosophila for instance, can give a fly an extra set of wings

Tell me you really don't see the difference between an extra set of wings and a trunk. PARTICULARLY from a genetic perspective, not just a visual one.
 
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Originally posted by chickenman
it was an example npeterly, you can also have mutations which completely change the shape of the wing

And that's why we now see so many fruit flies with wings shaped like Abraham Lincoln. The mutation was so beneficial, it stayed that way.
 
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Originally posted by npetreley
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury

Oh great. Another Phil Johnson wannabe.

And what struck me about the pigeon story was that it demonstrated something quite different than what Darwin imagined. It demonstrated clearly (with no imagination required) that given an outside intelligent force (the breeder), one could achieve a good degree of diversity very quickly.

No one disputes that. However, this fact says absolutely nothing about how quickly diversity can be achieved through natural means alone.

But my point here is not that pigeon breeding proves creation, but that there are often many ways to look at things.

Such as?

This would make me doubt evolution. After all, if mutation happens so often and so dramatically that out of a single source we can evolve into cats, elephants and men, why is it that these features which are not necessary for our success have survived through it all?

Oftentimes they don't. Some creatures have lost features entirely, like whales have lost their legs. Other features degrade to only a vestigial form, like the human appendix or the leg spurs on some snakes.

We simply ASSUME that every minute mutation somehow miraculously helped its success

Nope. We have evidence that the intermediate forms really existed. Here is the elephant family tree, for example:

http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Stories/Evolution/ancestry.gif

(The picture actually shows only a fraction of the extinct elephant species)

because we have similar-to-reptile-mammals and we have elephants, and we simply BELIEVE that one must have turned into the other.

If one did not turn into the other, then where did all the intermediate species come from? Did God create all of the intermediates just to have them die off a few million years later? Did God not create them perfectly the first time? What kind of incompetent mechanic is this God guy, anyway?

Oh, and let us not forget that we also believe that the millions of PREVIOUS mutations, even though they were only slightly different than the next ones, were somehow so different enough to be so unsuccessful that these half-nose-half-trunk went extinct in favor of 0.4999-nose-0.5001-trunk creatures, which went extinct when the 0.4998-nose-etc creatures evolved.

Well, we have fossil evidence of the .80-nose-.20-trunk and the .65-nose-.35-trunk and the .50-nose-.50-trunk and the .25-nose-.75-trunk and the .05-nose-.95-trunk and lots of intermediates between those. Is it really unreasonable to believe all of the other intermediates probably existed?
 
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Originally posted by npetreley
This would make me doubt evolution. After all, if mutation happens so often and so dramatically that out of a single source we can evolve into cats, elephants and men, why is it that these features which are not necessary for our success have survived through it all?

It is necessary to have a body plan. The body plan that works for four legged mammals is not the best us biped, but because evolution can only produce modifications to existing structures it is the one we are stuck with.

I can already hear the answer -- the fact that they were not necessary for our success means there were no needed changes.

Quite the contrary. Any structure that is not selected for tends to become vestigial and disappear over long periods of time, or to be co-opted to a different task (see whale pelvis).

So evolution assumes two very interesting things happening simultaneously. On the one hand, you have tiny successive mutations that turn things like a nose into an elephant's trunk,

They need not be tiny. Sometimes they are relatively large.

even though we have no way of proving a few million or even billion of those inbetween-nose-trunk mutations didn't actually hurt its success.

And at the same time we have no reason to presume that the nose-trunk intermediate did hurt reproductive success. we


We simply ASSUME that every minute mutation somehow miraculously helped its success because we have similar-to-reptile-mammals and we have elephants, and we simply BELIEVE that one must have turned into the other.

Well, Nick has to rely on assumptions, but that doesn't mean YOU have to. And this is where I steer this topic back to the evidence for macro-evolution.

I copy and paste from Talk-Origins Transitional Vertebrate FAQ to show Nick that we have more than just the assumption of elephant evolution.
Minchenella or a similar condylarth (late Paleocene) -- Known only from lower jaws. Has a distinctive broadened shelf on the third molar. The most plausible ancestor of the embrithopods & anthracobunids.
Phenacolophus (late Paleocene or early Eocene) -- An early embrithopod (very early, slightly elephant-like condylarths), thought to be the stem-group of all elephants.
Pilgrimella (early Eocene) -- An anthracobunid (early proto-elephant condylarth), with massive molar cusps aligned in two transverse ridges.
Unnamed species of proto-elephant (early Eocene) -- Discovered recently in Algeria. Had slightly enlarged upper incisors (the beginnings of tusks), and various tooth reductions. Still had "normal" molars instead of the strange multi-layered molars of modern elephants. Had the high forehead and pneumatized skull bones of later elephants, and was clearly a heavy-boned, slow animal. Only one meter tall.
Moeritherium, Numidotherium, Barytherium (early-mid Eocene) -- A group of three similar very early elephants. It is unclear which of the three came first. Pig-sized with stout legs, broad spreading feet and flat hooves. Elephantish face with the eye set far forward & a very deep jaw. Second incisors enlarged into short tusks, in upper and lower jaws; little first incisors still present; loss of some teeth. No trunk.
Paleomastodon, Phiomia (early Oligocene) -- The first "mastodonts", a medium-sized animals with a trunk, long lower jaws, and short upper and lower tusks. Lost first incisors and canines. Molars still have heavy rounded cusps, with enamel bands becoming irregular. Phiomia was up to eight feet tall.
GAP: Here's that Oligocene gap again. No elephant fossils at all for several million years.

Gomphotherium (early Miocene) -- Basically a large edition of Phiomia, with tooth enamel bands becoming very irregular. Two long rows cusps on teeth became cross- crests when worn down. Gave rise to several families of elephant- relatives that spread all over the world. From here on the elephant lineages are known to the species level.
The mastodon lineage split off here, becoming more adapted to a forest browser niche, and going through Miomastodon (Miocene) and Pliomastodon (Pliocene), to Mastodon (or "Mammut", Pleistocene).
Meanwhile, the elephant lineage became still larger, adapting to a savannah/steppe grazer niche:

Stegotetrabelodon (late Miocene) -- One of the first of the "true" elephants, but still had two long rows of cross-crests, functional premolars, and lower tusks. Other early Miocene genera show compression of the molar cusps into plates (a modern feature ), with exactly as many plates as there were cusps. Molars start erupting from front to back, actually moving forward in the jaw throughout life.
Primelephas (latest Miocene) -- Short lower jaw makes it look like an elephant now. Reduction & loss of premolars. Very numerous plates on the molars, now; we're now at the modern elephants' bizarre system of one enormous multi-layered molar being functional at a time, moving forward in the jaw.
Primelephas gomphotheroides (mid-Pliocene) -- A later species that split into three lineages, Loxodonta, Elephas, and Mammuthus:
Loxodonta adaurora (5 Ma). Gave rise to the modern African elephant Loxodonta africana about 3.5 Ma.
Elephas ekorensis (5 Ma), an early Asian elephant with rather primitive molars, clearly derived directly from P. gomphotheroides. Led directly to:
Elephas recki, which sent off one side branch, E. hydrusicus, at 3.8 Ma, and then continued changing on its own until it became E. iolensis.
Elephas maximus, the modern Asian elephant, clearly derived from
E. hysudricus. Strikingly similar to young E. hysudricus animals. Possibly a case of neoteny (in which "new" traits are simply juvenile features retained into adulthood).
Mammuthus meridionalis, clearly derived from P. gomphotheroides. Spread around the northern hemisphere. In Europe, led to M. armeniacus/trogontherii, and then to M. primigenius. In North America, led to M. imperator and then M. columbi.
The Pleistocene record for elephants is very good. In general, after the earliest forms of the three modern genera appeared, they show very smooth, continuous evolution with almost half of the speciation events preserved in fossils. For instance, Carroll (1988) says: "Within the genus Elephas, species demonstrate continuous change over a period of 4.5 million years. ...the elephants provide excellent evidence of significant morphological change within species, through species within genera, and through genera within a family...."
Species-species transitions among the elephants:

Maglio (1973) studied Pleistocene elephants closely. Overall, Maglio showed that at least 7 of the 17 Quaternary elephant species arose through smooth anagenesis transitions from their ancestors. For example, he said that Elephas recki "can be traced through a progressive series of stages...These stages pass almost imperceptibly into each other....In the late Pleistocene a more progressive elephant appears which I retain as a distinct species, E. iolensis, only as a matter of convenience. Although as a group, material referred to E. iolensis is distinct from that of E. recki, some intermediate specimens are known, and E. iolensis seems to represent a very progressive, terminal stage in the E. recki specific lineage."
Maglio also documented very smooth transitions between three Eurasian mammoth species: Mammuthus meridionalis --> M. armeniacus (or M. trogontherii) --> M. primigenius.
Lister (1993) reanalyzed mammoth teeth and confirmed Maglio's scheme of gradual evolution in European mammoths, and found evidence for gradual transitions in the North American mammoths too.

from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2b.html

and, just for the heck of it, I throw in this diagram right here:
ancestry.gif
from http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Stories/Evolution/evolution.html
 
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