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Evidence for Design (3)

EternalDragon

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I mean deliberate misrepresentation of scientific understanding in order to mislead people according to a vested interest, be it political, fiscal or religious.

It's simply a different assumption of the same evidence. Because it might point to an ID, an alien, or something else other than evolution it is called a lie.

There is no political, fiscal or religious motivation. Why would a fellow scientist want to mislead anyone? It's about finding the truth and learning about our world.

They say if new evidence or conclusions change the evolution theory, they would change with it. Well, that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
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createdtoworship

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They are not valid because ID is what they (you and ED) inherently and emotionally have wanted it to be true long before doing any real science; that's just not science, dude.

what if I c&p all the quotes tothis page then what would you say? Something different or something similiar just pointed at me?
 
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createdtoworship

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No, they are not valid because they have been shown to be dishonest hundreds of times.

there isn't even hundreds of sentences on the page in question, how can you say it's been shown dishonest hundreds of times?

unless your just being dishonest?
 
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Ursus scientia

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the context this whole time was premordial soup, not a pharmaceutical lab.

does it still do what you think it would do?

Doesn't it take a lab to produce this?

No. It takes a racemic mixture of monomers (amino acids, nucleotides, whatever), a catalyst and a negative free Gibb's energy. The idea that these conditions were not present on the young earth is quite a stretch.

EternalDragon said:
It's simply a different assumption of the same evidence. Because it might point to an ID, an alien, or something else other than evolution it is called a lie.

There is no political, fiscal or religious motivation. Why would a fellow scientist want to mislead anyone? It's about finding the truth and learning about our world.

It's a distortion of the evidence, usually by omitting crucial context or sometimes outright lying, to reconcile a personal belief in creationism. What you are saying is simply wrong and I don't believe for a second that you don't know that. There is no evidence for design. You can't even find any in a thread entitled "Evidence for design". I came here with high hopes and am incredibly disappointed.
 
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OllieFranz

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It's simply a different assumption of the same evidence. Because it might point to an ID, an alien, or something else other than evolution it is called a lie.

It's more than just a different assumption of the same evidence. It is a complete re-defining of basic scientific terms. It is the marketing of the philosophy of ID to fundamentalist church groups even before the research was complete, and there is the research itself.

The research papers take one of three paths. A philosophical overview, and two different styles of reviewing other scientists' work. No original research.

A philosophical overview is not by itself a science research paper. Most of Einstein's papers were largely philosophical, but he also included what he called "thought experiments." But in order to do these experiments, he first had to take established mathematical formulas for certain features of what he was studying (the physics of motion in that case) that had been developed under common conditions, and extend them to uncommon conditions. Even then, they were not established until experimental scientists acheived hose uncommon conditions and confirmed Einstein's "predictions." ID philosophical overviews do not include any quantified formulas, do not predict findings in uncommon conditions, and in fact contain no science. They remain entirely within thevphilosophical realm of teleology.

Similarly, very often an analysis of several similar experiments by varied researchers, comparing various aspects such as sample size and selection, and adherence to double-blind protocols, etc. can be helpful in determining why the results don't always agree. Sometimes this results in confirming one of two competing hypotheses, but more often it results in a recognition for more experiments with tighter control on the protocols. ID research institutes put out papers that, on the surface, look like these but on close examination simply look for any inconclusive results and use them to propose "Goddidit." Teleology is not science, and science should not be teleology.

The other kind of review paper we find in ID has no counterpart in science. In fact, one of the primary purposes of peer review is to weed out this kind of inaccuracies. In this kind of paper the "researcher combs through various independent papers looking for support of his hypothesis. Whenever he finds something encouraging, he "cleans it up," trimming away phrases and surrounding sentences that might "confuse" the reader into thinking that the originalauthor would not agree with what author of the review claims he meant. We call these papers "quote mines," and if the reviewer does not retract them, we rightly call him a liar.

There is no political, fiscal or religious motivation. Why would a fellow scientist want to mislead anyone? It's about finding the truth and learning about our world.

Then why do they lecture in fundamentalist churches for big fees, ans target Bible Belt school boards to incorporate their ideas?

They say if new evidence or conclusions change the evolution theory, they would change with it. Well, that doesn't seem to be the case.

There is not a single ID argument that has not been discussed for over 100 years by Creationists and debnked that long ago.
 
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EternalDragon

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It's more than just a different assumption of the same evidence. It is a complete re-defining of basic scientific terms. It is the marketing of the philosophy of ID to fundamentalist church groups even before the research was complete, and there is the research itself.

The research papers take one of three paths. A philosophical overview, and two different styles of reviewing other scientists' work. No original research.

I've read many articles from ID proponents and find what you say to be inaccurate. I doubt you have followed it closely or you would not be insinuating those things.

Perhaps you could provide some examples? Specifically a total re-defining of basic scientific terms. Or perhaps it is the evolution proponents that have hijacked the terms?
 
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Ursus scientia

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I've read many articles from ID proponents and find what you say to be inaccurate. I doubt you have followed it closely or you would not be insinuating those things.

Perhaps you could provide some examples? Specifically a total re-defining of basic scientific terms. Or perhaps it is the evolution proponents that have hijacked the terms?

I've heard every argument there is from creationist proponents. I'm not being inaccurate: there is NO honest and compelling argument for creationism. As for examples, sure, have three!

Macro/microevolution are not terms used in science. They're creationist terms designed to obfuscate the simple fact that as changes in an organism accumulate the net change increases.

Evolution is frequently misrepresented as abiogenesis, or the idea that if things evolve they only become more complex. This is not what evolution says, as evidenced by Mycoplasma genitalium's "devolution" into a very efficient, adapted bacterial parasite.

Then there's the example of the second law of thermodynamics supposedly invalidating evolution. The "closed system" phrase is dropped from the scientific definition of the law, this being "the net entropy of an closed system never decreases and only increases". As an organism is not a closed system this law is inapplicable, but creationists twist the definition to make their argument seem compelling to those who aren't versed in thermodyamics (pretty much everyone).


I hope you're happy with these points. Now instead of asking me to continually provide you with information, please give me your best argument for creationism.
 
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EternalDragon

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I've heard every argument there is from creationist proponents. I'm not being inaccurate: there is NO honest and compelling argument for creationism. As for examples, sure, have three!

Macro/microevolution are not terms used in science. They're creationist terms designed to obfuscate the simple fact that as changes in an organism accumulate the net change increases.

Evolution is frequently misrepresented as abiogenesis, or the idea that if things evolve they only become more complex. This is not what evolution says, as evidenced by Mycoplasma genitalium's "devolution" into a very efficient, adapted bacterial parasite.

Then there's the example of the second law of thermodynamics supposedly invalidating evolution. The "closed system" phrase is dropped from the scientific definition of the law, this being "the net entropy of an closed system never decreases and only increases". As an organism is not a closed system this law is inapplicable, but creationists twist the definition to make their argument seem compelling to those who aren't versed in thermodyamics (pretty much everyone).


I hope you're happy with these points. Now instead of asking me to continually provide you with information, please give me your best argument for creationism.

You went totally off subject. I am speaking about Intelligent Design. Not creationism. None of those points addresses ID theory or their peer reviewed papers or articles or books.
 
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Ursus scientia

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You went totally off subject. I am speaking about Intelligent Design. Not creationism. None of those points addresses ID theory or their peer reviewed papers or articles or books.

Intelligent design is creationism.

I am not off topic, I am asking you to provide me with your best argument for design. That is the topic of this thread. Feel free to start another if you want to discuss something else. ; )
 
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createdtoworship

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What experiments did they do to test ID hypotheses?

read it it's free



Evolution News and Views is not a peer reviewed journal. It is a creaitonist website.
evolution news and views reviews the peer reviewed documents, they are linked in the links I gave.

Evolution News & Views, Discovery Insitute, and this forum are not peer reviewed journals.

the are lists of peer reviews on the discovery institute pages. You just have to get off your fanny and look.
 
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createdtoworship

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I'm not sure what you are saying here, Grady??

I am saying is how can a page of quotes be false?

IF I were to post them here would I be false too?

After all they are other peoples words.
 
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Loudmouth

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read it it's free

Did I also mention that "Transactions of the Wessex Institute" is not a peer reviewed journal?

Also, you can't even tell us about the science found in the fake paper?

Evolution news and views reviews the peer reviewed documents, they are linked in the links I gave.

Then link to one of those papers and discuss how it is a valid peer reviewed article on ID. What is stopping you?

the are lists of peer reviews on the discovery institute pages. You just have to get off your fanny and look.

So says the person who is refusing to discuss a single one of those papers. Get off your fanny and show us how this is valid science that supports ID.
 
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bhsmte

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I am saying is how can a page of quotes be false?

IF I were to post them here would I be false too?

After all they are other peoples words.

You know the answer to that question Grady and you should know it well, because using quotes (in a certain way) is one of your core debate tactics and the tactic has been exposed for what it is.

Now, I think you should get off your fanny and develop some new strategies.
 
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