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Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

parousia70

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This proves absolutely nothing in favor of Preterism.

Then Take the scriptures I cited and show us why they do not mean what I contend they do.

I noticed you failed to address all but one of them in your laborious reply. And you didn't even address it or attempt demonstrate How I'm wrong about it.

I agree Heaven and earth in scripture CAN MEAN the entire Planet, and the Heaven as God's Abode, so let's get that off the table.

What you fail to recognize is its precedented symbolic usage when it comes to Judgment/covenant that I laid out and you failed to address, But I'm confident our readers were able to understand.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think I must have missed where you answered my question:
Does "near and at the doors in Matthew 24:33 mean near form Gods eternal perspective or Mans natural one?

When whoever it is "sees all these things", AFTER they are seen and they have all come to pass, is His coming THEN "near and at the doors" from mans perspective, or still Thousands of years away "near and at the doors" from God's Perspective?

("It's the Jewish race" is not the answer. and no, they don't still exist as a race as far as anyone can demonstrate...not one single Jew alive today can trace their genetic lineage to a single per desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.)
View attachment 300173
View attachment 300174

God's Perspective. And yes Jews do still exist as a physical ethnic race.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Then Take the scriptures I cited and show us why they do not mean what I contend they do.

I noticed you failed to address all but one of them in your laborious reply. And you didn't even address it or attempt demonstrate How I'm wrong about it.

I agree Heaven and earth in scripture CAN MEAN the entire Planet, and the Heaven as God's Abode, so let's get that off the table.

What you fail to recognize is its precedented symbolic usage when it comes to Judgment/covenant that I laid out and you failed to address, But I'm confident our readers were able to understand.

You spiritualize the physical reality away continually in order to support Preterism. I simply reject your hermeneutics.
 
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Gundy22

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"You will not have gone through all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come"

"There be some standing here who will not taste of death until the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"


Mar 13:25

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Mar 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

These are the words of Jesus - I need an eschatology where the WORDS OF JESUS make sense! R C SProul addresses this, and though he seems a Calvinist and I am not Calvinist - he seeks an eschatology which tries to resolve the actual words of Jesus about His own coming. Call it Partial Preterism or call it something else, but give me an eschatology that does not make Jesus a false prophet about His own coming.
 
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DavidPT

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And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The text indicates He shall come in great glory. What event in the first century did He come in great glory during?


glory
doxa
doxa
dox'-ah
from the base of dokew - dokeo 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):--dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.
 
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Gundy22

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SOMETHING HAPPENNED in 70 AD that is/was SIGNIFICANT - it was a PAROUSIA; a coming, a judgement on Israel, a presence - it need not be the final one - if I believed that I would be a Full Preterist, but I don't and I am not.

From the time of the RENT VEIL at the Cross to the destruction in 70 AD - what if anything worthwhile occurred at the Temple? Paul shaving his head and taking a vow - paying for 4 other guys to do the same? IMO, just something he was talked into doing by James - just Judaizing hooplah...
 
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Gundy22

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What event in the first century did He come in great glory during?

Stephen saw Him standing at the right hand of God - that seems GREAT GLORY to me - it was right before Stephen TASTED DEATH.
 
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sovereigngrace

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"You will not have gone through all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come"

"There be some standing here who will not taste of death until the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"


Mar 13:25

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Mar 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

These are the words of Jesus - I need an eschatology where the WORDS OF JESUS make sense! R C SProul addresses this, and though he seems a Calvinist and I am not Calvinist - he seeks an eschatology which tries to resolve the actual words of Jesus about His own coming. Call it Partial Preterism or call it something else, but give me an eschatology that does not make Jesus a false prophet about His own coming.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:27-28: For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Anyway, the parallel passage in Mark 9:1 adds more detail to the statement: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).”

Whilst Christ introduced the kingdom with His earthly ministry, the kingdom of God did not “come with power” until Pentecost. The Holy Ghost falling upon them equipped the disciples to take the Gospel out into the nations, with remarkable courage, strength and success.

The Greek word here for “power” is dunamis – where we get the English words dynamite or dynamo from.

God was saying that the kingdom of God was soon going to be explosive. Believers were going to have a turbo put into their engine that would embolden them to invade the nations with the glorious Gospel of Christ.

The Lord said shortly before His ascension, in Luke 24:49, “tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (or dunamis) from on high.”

Jesus said in Acts 1:8, “ye shall receive power (or dunamis), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.”

Ephesians 3:20 records: "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power (or dunamis) that worketh in us."
 
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sovereigngrace

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Stephen saw Him standing at the right hand of God - that seems GREAT GLORY to me - it was right before Stephen TASTED DEATH.

The coming of Christ is a literal physical climactic event. You cannot spiritualize it away to fit Preterism.

Acts 1:10 says, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
  1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
  2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
  3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
  4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
  5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?
Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him (Revelation 1:7).
  1. Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?
  2. Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him?
  3. Did the Gentiles also wail because of Him?
Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.
 
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DavidPT

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Stephen saw Him standing at the right hand of God - that seems GREAT GLORY to me - it was right before Stephen TASTED DEATH.


How does that involve a coming, then? You're ignoring the 'coming' part. Not to mention, you are also ignoring context since nothing involving Acts 7 involved any of the following at the time.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Gundy22

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Lot of graves busted open and saints resurrected - went into the city - were seen by many.

Do you doubt that this happenned?
Perhaps the angels did some gathering already - I am sur they will do more gathering later.

PRETERISM is still being talked about as if FULL and PARTIAL were the same thing. They are NOT.

ChristianForums.com recognizes this - the Eschatology mods realize this - i.e. - "No Full Preterism - Partial Preterists welcomed"

what part of that do some of yall NOT UNDERSTAND?
 
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Timtofly

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I see the Olivet discourse as literal and the book of Revelation as symbolic.
So no humans? Literal sheep and goats. Is see both as literal, with symbolic attributes given to the characters.
 
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sovereigngrace

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SOMETHING HAPPENNED in 70 AD that is/was SIGNIFICANT - it was a PAROUSIA; a coming, a judgement on Israel, a presence - it need not be the final one - if I believed that I would be a Full Preterist, but I don't and I am not.

From the time of the RENT VEIL at the Cross to the destruction in 70 AD - what if anything worthwhile occurred at the Temple? Paul shaving his head and taking a vow - paying for 4 other guys to do the same? IMO, just something he was talked into doing by James - just Judaizing hooplah...

It was NOT the parousia of Jesus. Peter speaking to the religious Jews in Acts 3:19-21 confirms the concluding nature of the Second Advent, saying, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (apokatastasis or reconstitution) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

The whole sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “’Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored (apokathistemi) whole, like as the other.” Likewise in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored (apokathistemi), and saw every man clearly.”

All of the prophets spoke about a time when there would be a renewal of all things. They look forward with expectancy to a time when the curse would be finally removed from creation. This reading locates the time of the fulfilment of the “restitution of all things” as occurring at the Second Advent. This glorious final event sees the elimination of the old temporal degenerate state, and the introducing of the new perfect one. It is not merely the restitution of some things or even most things as some would have us believe, but (in complete agreement with the previous passage we looked at in 1 Peter 4:3-7), of “all things.”

This passage is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.” Just like heaven “received him” (Acts 1:9) nearly 2,000 years ago; it will continue to detain Christ until the “the times of restitution of all things.” Interestingly, the word until used here is the Greek word achri (Strong's 891), which carries the idea of a terminus of time and meaning of up until or up to. It is variously interpreted in the King James Version as far as, for, into, till, even unto, even until.

The termination of this prolonged period – namely the climactic Second Advent – corresponds with the “reconstitution of all things” – thus the introducing of the “new heavens and a new earth” and the eternal state. Christ, therefore, will not appear until the consummation of all things, which is the time when every enemy of Christ and His kingdom are finally destroyed, when this sin-cursed world is destroyed, and the time when the kingdom of God will be finally revealed in all its glory.
 
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sovereigngrace

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SOMETHING HAPPENNED in 70 AD that is/was SIGNIFICANT - it was a PAROUSIA; a coming, a judgement on Israel, a presence - it need not be the final one - if I believed that I would be a Full Preterist, but I don't and I am not.

From the time of the RENT VEIL at the Cross to the destruction in 70 AD - what if anything worthwhile occurred at the Temple? Paul shaving his head and taking a vow - paying for 4 other guys to do the same? IMO, just something he was talked into doing by James - just Judaizing hooplah...

There are absolutely no witnesses that testify that Jesus came in AD70. No eye saw Him. That is a figment of Preterist theology. That is because He never came then. He is coming in power and final glory on the last day.
 
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Gundy22

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Did Jesus SNEAK OUT of where He was to be held captive til the restitution of all things so that He could encounter Paul on Damascus road?

Did He SNEAK OUT to visit two disciples on road to Emmaus?

When He appeared to disciples through closed doors - without Thomas present and then again when Thomas was there?
 
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DavidPT

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Did Jesus SNEAK OUT of where He was to be held captive til the restitution of all things so that He could encounter Paul on Damascus road?

Did He SNEAK OUT to visit two disciples on road to Emmaus?

When He appeared to disciples through closed doors - without Thomas present and then again when Thomas was there?


None of that ever involved any of the following, which is something that occurs along with the coming meant.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


We can't divorce that from this.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You need to find an event in the first century that matches all of this at the time, if one is to seriously consider your position---and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is all one event. Also, take note of when the coming is meaning.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

It is meaning after the trib of days, those trib of days meaning Matthew 24:15-26, and is after the sun goes dark, the stars fall from heaven, etc. That is when the coming occurs. Whatever one applies the trib of those days to, the coming doesn't occur during any of that since the coming is after that, not during that, unless one wants to claim Jesus was mistaken in Matthew 24:29.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Did Jesus SNEAK OUT of where He was to be held captive til the restitution of all things so that He could encounter Paul on Damascus road?

Did He SNEAK OUT to visit two disciples on road to Emmaus?

When He appeared to disciples through closed doors - without Thomas present and then again when Thomas was there?

There are absolutely no witnesses that testify that Jesus came in AD70. No eye saw Him. That is a figment of Preterist theology. That is because He never came then. He is coming in power and final glory on the last day.
 
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Timtofly

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Consider this: The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His Servant John - Introduction Part 2

Dating of the Book of Revelation - Majority view:

Many of the Church Fathers and Church historians who agreed that St. John the Apostle wrote down the visions given to him by Christ in the New Testament book of the Apocalypse/Revelation could not come to agreement on which Roman emperor had banished him to the island of Patmos. Bishop Apringius, who wrote a sixth century commentary on Revelation, maintained that it was the Emperor Claudius (died 54 AD) who banished St. John, while the Venerable Bede, relying on the testimony of Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea quoting St. Irenaeus, believed it was the Emperor Domitian (see the quotes above). Others testified that it was Claudius' successor, the vicious Emperor Nero who banished St. John to Patmos. Most modern Biblical scholars hold the view that Revelation was written during the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian who ruled from 81-96 AD. This view is based solely on a passage written by St. Irenaeus (died c. 200 AD) in his book Against Heresies 5:30:3. Irenaeus discussing the "Beast" passages in Revelation wrote: If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.

Other scholars, however, who dispute dating the book of Revelation to the reign of Domitian, point out that there are major problems with this view:

  1. Irenaeus' passage, written in Greek, is somewhat ambiguous; for example his words For it was seen... could be referring to the book itself, which was not fully circulated among the various churches in Asia Minor and the West until the reign of Domitian. Nowhere does Irenaeus say that the book was written at that time, although he does say that John lived until the reign of Domitian.
  2. Irenaeus is the only source for this late dating of Revelation; all other ancient sources merely quote him.
  3. Those other sources testify that there is no historical evidence of widespread persecution during Domitian's reign and that he usually exiled troublesome Christian leaders. The only years of widespread persecution of Christians prior to Domitian's reign occurred during the reign of the Emperor Nero.
Dating of the Book of Revelation - Minority View:

There are scholars who believe that Revelation was written during the widespread persecution of Christian during reign of the Roman Emperor Nero who ruled from 54-68 AD. Evidence that supports the minority view:

  1. There is a lack of evidence for a great Christian persecution under the rule of the Emperor Domitian.
  2. There are volumes of evidence and testimony which support widespread Christian persecution during the reign of Nero.
  3. The suggested list of the seven or eight emperors in Revelation chapter 17 can be supported historically by the two different lists of emperors used by Roman historians.
  4. The mention of the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem in Revelation 11:1 suggests that the Temple was still standing when John had his vision. The Jerusalem Temple had been destroyed decades prior to the reign of Domitian in 70 AD.
Trying to eradicate one disciple by the name of John does not demand widespread persecution. Satan wanted to get rid of John prior to the Revelation. He could not. The point was that the Revelation was seen almost in the generation of Irenaeus. Who are all the church fathers of the majority view? Where is the list of names, unless Irenaeus was the only one who wrote a single word? What does Origen or Policarp write?
 
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Gundy22

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You need to find an event in the first century that matches all of this at the time,

No I don't. I am a PARTIAL preterist - I guess that word escapes some in this thread.

Some stuff happenned - some stuff is still to come
 
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sovereigngrace

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Did Jesus SNEAK OUT of where He was to be held captive til the restitution of all things so that He could encounter Paul on Damascus road?

Did He SNEAK OUT to visit two disciples on road to Emmaus?

When He appeared to disciples through closed doors - without Thomas present and then again when Thomas was there?

The two disciples on the road to Emmaus and Thomas occurrence was before His physical visible bodily ascent. Re Paul on the road to Damascus, the light and sound came from heaven.

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
 
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