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Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

DavidPT

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No I don't. I am a PARTIAL preterist - I guess that word escapes some in this thread.

Some stuff happenned - some stuff is still to come

No one participating in this thread is a full Preterist, or if they are, maybe they shouldn't be participating in this thread then, so I don't get your point? We're all partial Preterists to some degree, meaning anyone who is not full Preterist. This discussion involves the coming meant in Matthew 24:30 for one. Should that be understood via a Preterist lens or a futurist lens, that's what is in question?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I was talking to anyone who might be reading this thread about the date of Revelation, not to any poster in particular. But I will tell you what, Spiritual Jew - since you don't like the way I post - I will put you on Ignore, you can put me on Ignore, and all will be groovy.
I was just asking a question and offering a suggestion. If you don't want to do what I suggested, that's up to you. You are completely overreacting here.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The official position of the board towards this Eschatology section is that Partial Preterists are welcome. But in reality we are not. We are lumped with Fulls at every mention. What a cold bowl of chili.
That is not true. You are clearly very sensitive and you are overreacting to the scrutiny your partial preterist view is receiving here. Every view gets scrutinized on this forum. We should all expect that and not be so easily offended when it happens.

No one here is equating full preterism and partial preterism, either. Show me even one post where someone did that.
 
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parousia70

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God's Perspective.

Got it. Your position is that after ALL the signs given in Matthew 24 are seen, and have all come to pass, the Parousia of Christ could still be thousands of years away.

Your position is Noted.


And yes Jews do still exist as a physical ethnic race.
Name one. And name the pre desolation Hebrew person he or she can trace their lineage to.

Which one of these Jews is of the Jewish Race?
All 3?
ynBMbZK.png
 
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sovereigngrace

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Got it. Your position is that after ALL the signs given in Matthew 24 are seen, and have all come to pass, the Parousia of Christ could still be thousands of years away.

Your position is Noted.



Name one. And name the pre desolation Hebrew person he or she can trace their lineage to.

Which one of these Jews is of the Jewish Race?
All 3?
ynBMbZK.png

It is not restricted by color but allegiance to outward Judaism over the centuries.
 
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parousia70

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It is not restricted by color but allegiance to outward Judaism over the centuries.
If that's the criteria, Then Catholics must be a Race too, and it is possible for human beings to change their Race. Your criteria for race means that it is possible for a human being to be born as one race, and die as another.

One other problem, no Jew today has any allegiance to the Judaism of Scripture.
Their allegiance is to the Post Christian, man made religion of the Babylonian Talmud.

The bottom line is that Jews today are so genetically diverse in terms of gene haplogroup membership that the Jews as a race argument crumbles into dust.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Amil should agree with you, just some are adverse to preterism as much as a future millennium.
What does this mean? Someone being amil does not at all mean that someone should also be partial preterist. Where did you get that idea from? It's the other way around. Partial preterists are amils, but there are also historicist, idealist and futurist amils.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If that's the criteria, Then Catholics must be a Race too, and it is possible for human beings to change their Race. Your criteria for race means that it is possible for a human being to be born as one race, and die as another.

One other problem, no Jew today has any allegiance to the Judaism of Scripture.
Their allegiance is to the Post Christian, man made religion of the Babylonian Talmud.

The bottom line is that Jews today are so genetically diverse in terms of gene haplogroup membership that the Jews as a race argument crumbles into dust.

I do not deny Judaism is apostate. But they still exist like any other Christ-rejecting race.
 
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parousia70

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I do not deny Judaism is apostate. But they still exist like any other Christ-rejecting race.

So do you also argue Catholics are a distinct "Race" of people? Since they fit the criteria of "allegiance to Catholicism over the centuries"? Or does your criteria suddenly not apply to Catholics?
 
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sovereigngrace

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So do you also argue Catholics are a distinct "Race" of people? Since they fit the criteria of "allegiance to Catholicism over the centuries"? Or does your criteria suddenly not apply to Catholics?

Catholics are not an ethnic race.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Nero reportedly died in AD 68 by suicide, 2 years before the attack on Jerusalem. That seems to diminish the case for AD 70 being the great tribulation and Nero the antichrist.
 
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claninja

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And yes Jews do still exist as a physical ethnic race.

You seem to be conflating "genea" with "genos".

Genea:

Thayers
"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."


Genos:

Thayers
stock, race: Acts 7:19; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Philippians 3:5; Galatians 1:14; 1 Peter 2:9; (Genesis 11:6; Genesis 17:14, etc. for עַם); nation (i. e. nationality or descent from a particular people): Mark 7:26; Acts 4:36; Acts 18:2, 24.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You seem to be conflating "genea" with "genos".

Genea:

Thayers
"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."


Genos:

Thayers
stock, race: Acts 7:19; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Philippians 3:5; Galatians 1:14; 1 Peter 2:9; (Genesis 11:6; Genesis 17:14, etc. for עַם); nation (i. e. nationality or descent from a particular people): Mark 7:26; Acts 4:36; Acts 18:2, 24.

How about giving the full meaning? As usual, you are selective in quoting the meaning in order to place a Preterist slant on the word. You avoided the main meanings of 1, 2, 2a, 2b and 2b1 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. You have to in order for Preterism to fit. Preterists are typically very bias and selective in their quotes in order to sustain their position. This is not being fair or accurate. It is not being totally honest and transparent.

The reality is: Preterists insist on a secondary meaning of the Greek word genea to support their beliefs. This shows the fragility of the whole doctrine. It is manifestly not built on solid ground.

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means "this race" - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy." Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to "this generation" in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So even if a limited physical generation was required of the text it would be one preceding Christ's return.

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe a time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.
 
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Timtofly

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What does this mean? Someone being amil does not at all mean that someone should also be partial preterist. Where did you get that idea from? It's the other way around. Partial preterists are amils, but there are also historicist, idealist and futurist amils.
I said agree with him, not some eschatology.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Judaism is a religion.

True, and Messianic Jews (MJs) are those who come to accept the Lord as Savior as written in the New Testament.
 
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claninja

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How about giving the full meaning?

Why, when Thayer's has the definition of "genea" in Matthew 24:34 as meaning generation, and NOT solely race?

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."

As usual, you are selective in quoting the meaning in order to place a Preterist slant on the word.

I have selectively quoted the section of the Thayer's that provides the definition of genea in Matthew 24:34. Why would I provide the other meanings that don't contain matthew 24:34?

You avoided the main meanings of 1, 2, 2a, 2b and 2b1 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

Does 1, 2, 2a, or 2b provide matthew 24:34 as an example for genea being used in a different sense than "generation"?

Let's take a look here:

Number 1 doesn't.

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

For example, Herodotus uses it to mean "birth" or "hereditary".
"Such were Cambyses' mad acts to his own household, whether they were done because of Apis or grew from some of the many troubles that are wont to beset men; for indeed he is said to have been afflicted from his birth with that grievous disease which some call "sacred."16 It is no unlikely thing p45 then that when his body was grievously afflicted his mind too should be diseased." Herodotus 3, 33.

Number 2 doesn't. Here we see genea can mean men of same stock (family relation), such as a generation like in Matthew 1:17, where there were 14 generations from David to Jesus (2a), and/or men of same metaphorical stock such as a wicked generation (2b). This does not mean the same as "genos".

passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

However, it doesn't seem that your argument is that genea must mean generation like a family generation (14 generations from David to Jesus), nor does your argument appear to be that genea means a metaphorical wicked generation.

Your argument appears to be that genea means "race" and that genea, in the context of matthew 24:34, means the Jewish race. The only times Thayer mentions "jewish race" is in point number 3 "
used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period" .

Your argument is really that "genos" is what is to be understood in Matthew 24:34. However, "genos" is not found in matthew 24:34, and so I disagree with your argument.

Preterists are typically very bias and selective in their quotes in order to sustain their position.

Your argument here is "genetic fallacy", as we are all bias. Your bias causes you to ignore Thayer's 3rd definition of genea, which contains matthew 24:34, because it disagrees with your position, while my bias causes me to use Thayer's 3rd defintion of genea, which contains matthew 24:34, because it agrees with my position.

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race.

Genea and Genos do not appear interchangeable as you seem to argue.

The Jews are a "genos" in that they descend from a paticular group of people, the Israelites, descending from Abraham through Jacob.

Saying the Jews are a "genea" makes less sense unless you are going to make the metaphorical argument, such as thayer's point 2b of the genea.

The reality is: Preterists insist on a secondary meaning of the Greek word genea to support their beliefs. This shows the fragility of the whole doctrine. It is manifestly not built on solid ground.

Subjective argument. I could say the same of futurism.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why, when Thayer's has the definition of "genea" in Matthew 24:34 as meaning generation, and NOT solely race?

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."



I have selectively quoted the section of the Thayer's that provides the definition of genea in Matthew 24:34. Why would I provide the other meanings that don't contain matthew 24:34?



Does 1, 2, 2a, or 2b provide matthew 24:34 as an example for genea being used in a different sense than "generation"?

Let's take a look here:

Number 1 doesn't.

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

For example, Herodotus uses it to mean "birth" or "hereditary".
"Such were Cambyses' mad acts to his own household, whether they were done because of Apis or grew from some of the many troubles that are wont to beset men; for indeed he is said to have been afflicted from his birth with that grievous disease which some call "sacred."16 It is no unlikely thing p45 then that when his body was grievously afflicted his mind too should be diseased." Herodotus 3, 33.

Number 2 doesn't. Here we see genea can mean men of same stock (family relation), such as a generation like in Matthew 1:17, where there were 14 generations from David to Jesus (2a), and/or men of same metaphorical stock such as a wicked generation (2b). This does not mean the same as "genos".

passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

However, it doesn't seem that your argument is that genea must mean generation like a family generation (14 generations from David to Jesus), nor does your argument appear to be that genea means a metaphorical wicked generation.

Your argument appears to be that genea means "race" and that genea, in the context of matthew 24:34, means the Jewish race. The only times Thayer mentions "jewish race" is in point number 3 "
used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period" .

Your argument is really that "genos" is what is to be understood in Matthew 24:34. However, "genos" is not found in matthew 24:34, and so I disagree with your argument.



Your argument here is "genetic fallacy", as we are all bias. Your bias causes you to ignore Thayer's 3rd definition of genea, which contains matthew 24:34, because it disagrees with your position, while my bias causes me to use Thayer's 3rd defintion of genea, which contains matthew 24:34, because it agrees with my position.



Genea and Genos do not appear interchangeable as you seem to argue.

The Jews are a "genos" in that they descend from a paticular group of people, the Israelites, descending from Abraham through Jacob.

Saying the Jews are a "genea" makes less sense unless you are going to make the metaphorical argument, such as thayer's point 2b of the genea.



Subjective argument. I could say the same of futurism.

Thayer's definition is what we are talking about. But what Scripture they apply the respective meanings to is totally arbitrary. Their opinion is no greater or more accurate than yours or mine. It is subjective. It may be colored by one's theological perspective. The reality is: we can judge for ourselves. The definition of the word is sufficient to prove my point. My position and understanding is in full keeping with its original meaning, its consistent usage throughout the Word, and its root meaning, thus negating the Preterist theory.

I have already shown you that the word interpreted "generation" is broader than you will acknowledge. Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. It means "this race" - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy."

Many speculate on what genea is speaking of, and impose their own opinion of how long they think a generation is to fit your theology. Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot accept genea as anything other than 40 years back in Jesus day. To others, the meaning and context suggests that we are looking at an age or race, all depending on the context.

The detail re generation speaks of that genea alive when He returns in power and glory. The subject in view continues until the end of each respective chapter.
 
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