Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

sovereigngrace said:

Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective.

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So when Jesus, who IS God, Said:

"So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!" (Matthew 24:33)

He meant when you see all these things know that it is "near & at the doors" from God's eternal Perspective, and not Man's natural perspective?

sovereigngrace said:

In the year 2000 I started writing a book to support Premil and changed to Amil after 6 months. The basis of my research was corroboration.

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Ha, ha, ha! Thank you Lord for not whacking me over the ears for the dumb books Ive started. Mine was called, 'Tomorrow is Now.' Its in the darkest depths of my filing cabinet now.

parousia70 said:

So when Jesus, who IS God, Said:

"So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!" (Matthew 24:33)

He meant when you see all these things know that it is "near & at the doors" from God's eternal Perspective, and not Man's natural perspective?

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I see the Olivet discourse as literal and the book of Revelation as symbolic.

parousia70 said:

If we are to believe scripture, more than once.
Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, laying the earth and sea bare to its foundations and shaking the heavens at that time (2 Samuel 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jeremiah 4:22-30), and likewise destroyed it again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 32:1-16).



COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth", and that heaven and earth was specific, relating and connected only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me


(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.


(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

Contrary to the your assertion, the Hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mark 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

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This proves absolutely nothing in favor of Preterism. The Preterist fixation with 70AD and the coming of Titus is wrong, unhealthy, dangerous and unbiblical. Their skewed and faulty mode of interpretation colors their vision of God's truth. The doctrine itself requires the rejection of the real, clear and obvious meaning of repeated Scripture, and its replacement with something that is more fitting and palatable to the obscure Preterist thinking. This is not normal or acceptable biblical hermeneutics.

You need to undertake a deeper and broader study of this to get the proper biblical perspective. In the 59 references in the New Testament where “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage, they are always 100% describing what we would all commonly know as “heaven” and “earth.” What is more, in the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” the word "earth (or gē) is exclusively referring to the place we humans live. To argue otherwise, is changing truth a facilitate the teaching of man.

When Jesus wanted to talk about this planet that we live on He called it gē. To Him, it described where we as humans live. It is always used in contrast to heaven where God lives. The bliss and perfect of heaven (ouranos) is often compared in Christ's teaching to the corruption and trials of earth (gē). Here are some examples:

There are no grounds to spiritualize these away apart from justify false doctrine.

Jesus prayed to the Father in Matthew 11:25: “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772) and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Jesus promised in Matthew 16:19: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772): and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) shall be bound in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) shall be loosed in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772).”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Jesus says in Matthew 18:19: “That if two of you shall agree on earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772).”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Matthew 28:18 records: “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772) and in earth (or gē Strong’s 1093).”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Jesus says in Luke 16:17: “And it is easier for heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772) and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Acts 4:24 says, “And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), and the sea, and all that in them is.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Acts 7:49 declares: “Heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772) is my throne, and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Acts 14:15 tells us: “We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), and the sea, and all things that are therein.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Ephesians 3:14-15 records, “I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772) and earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) is named.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), and that are in earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Hebrews 12:26 says, “Whose voice then shook the earth (or gē Strong’s 1093): but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772).”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Revelation 5:3 declares: “And no man in heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), nor in earth, neither under the earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

Revelation 10:5-7 says speaking about the end, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth (or gē Strong’s 1093) lifted up his hand to heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven (or ouranos Strong’s 3772), and the things that therein are, and the earth (or gē Strong’s 1093), and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Is Christ making a reference to the earth as most people understand it (and which we humans live on) or is He speaking of the temple in Jerusalem?

parousia70 said:

So when Jesus, who IS God, Said:

"So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!" (Matthew 24:33)

He meant when you see all these things know that it is "near & at the doors" from God's eternal Perspective, and not Man's natural perspective?

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I believe He was talking about the Jewish race. They still continue, and will do until they say of that final day: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mat 23:39).

Jeffwhosoever said:

Idealism is one of the interpretations we are studying, so yes.

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Oh. Interesting. You need to read More Than Conquerors by William Hendrickson or Revelation by Kistemaker. They are 2 classic works.

The official position of the board towards this Eschatology section is that Partial Preterists are welcome. But in reality we are not. We are lumped with Fulls at every mention. What a cold bowl of chili.

Freedm said:

You could say that, bearing in mind that futurists believe the second coming must be physical, making it impossible for you to even contemplate my position. If only you could release that requirement.

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Do you believe in the literal physical visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ in the future for His elect?

Jeffwhosoever said:

Rather than argue, let's consider the evidence:
When was the Revelation of Jesus Christ Written? The testimony of the Church Fathers

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Irrefutable evidence! They were close to the original witnesses. The Preterist arguments that are presented are mainly modern arguments that they need to support their mistaken views.

Freedm presented Jonathan Welton's views of an opinion written by someone on a title page of a Bible in the fourth-century in Syria to rebut the constant witness of the early church fathers at the beginning. This is poor evidence. That is as valid and compelling as me being a prime witness to events that occurred at the formation of the US in 1776. It is utter folly. But this is classic Preterist evidence. It doesn't add up.

Gundy22 said:

The official position of the board towards this Eschatology section is that Partial Preterists are welcome. But in reality we are not. We are lumped with Fulls at every mention. What a cold bowl of chili.

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Mea culpa, but I just abbreviate to 'Preterist' rather than repeating long titles every time I talk. Ive got friends here who are part prets. No harm meant.

thx, CG

Lost4words said:

Not everyone who followed Jesus, or had seen Jesus or had been blessed by Jesus's words died befor 70AD my friend.

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Many were not even born before 70AD....

Gundy22 said:

I do not accept that "some of you standing here will live through the next six days" is the explanation for those that would live to see Jesus coming into His kingdom.

Some people downplay the Transfiguration and say "Oh, it was only a vision" - but SJ's interpretation overplays the Transfiguration, making it the be all and end all of things.

This quirky interpretation makes "some of you standing here" mean "everyone who doesn't die within the next six days".

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Is there more after being glorified? Would many standing there eventually become a God, besides the God of creation?

sovereigngrace said:

I believe He was talking about the Jewish race. They still continue, and will do until they say of that final day: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mat 23:39).

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I think I must have missed where you answered my question:
Does "near and at the doors in Matthew 24:33 mean near form Gods eternal perspective or Mans natural one?

When whoever it is "sees all these things", AFTER they are seen and they have all come to pass, is His coming THEN "near and at the doors" from mans perspective, or still Thousands of years away "near and at the doors" from God's Perspective?

("It's the Jewish race" is not the answer. and no, they don't still exist as a race as far as anyone can demonstrate...not one single Jew alive today can trace their genetic lineage to a single per desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.)
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Gundy22 said:

The official position of the board towards this Eschatology section is that Partial Preterists are welcome. But in reality we are not. We are lumped with Fulls at every mention. What a cold bowl of chili.

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Indeed.
"Are Welcomed" seems pretty generous in light of actual events "on the ground" here...