everyone is saved

[staledale]

i clearly see the message of the New Testament to be that the Light of Jesus Christ is the news that everyone is saved by the grace of God. Jews and Gentiles alike, the circumcised, and the uncircumcised.

i have read through and this is my conclusion, if anyone can find fault with this please reason with me that i might see the truth.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

i clearly see the message of the New Testament to be that the Light of Jesus Christ is the news that everyone is saved by the grace of God. Jews and Gentiles alike, the circumcised, and the uncircumcised.

i have read through and this is my conclusion, if anyone can find fault with this please reason with me that i might see the truth.

Everyone is saved whether or not they believe, and have faith in, Jesus as the Son of God?

 

[staledale]

Everyone is saved whether or not they believe, and have faith in, Jesus as the Son of God?

God's grace falls apon everyone, and we can know this, through faith in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God, and through faith in him, we know that everyone is saved by God

 

[BibleScribe]

God's grace falls apon everyone, and we can know this, through faith in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God, and through faith in him, we know that everyone is saved by God

So far I've only heard and read that it's by faith alone. I could be wrong though.

 

[staledale]

by faith you can know this. it is not because you have faith that God gives his gift. he gives his gift regardless. mans works have nothing to do with the grace of God. but Jesus was sent to be a witness unto God. and through faith in this fact, people who are yet dead on this world, might know the forgiveness of God, and that is what makes them to be living.

it is not something that some people deserve, or earn throught rightiousness, rightiousness is only something that is given from God.

and who are we to bless ourselves, proclaiming ourselves to be just before the eyes of God. for it is not by our power, but by Gods power that he saves anyone whom he chooses.

 

[BibleScribe]

Sorry not sure what you were getting at, but let me explain myself a bit. No one is sinless and no one is just in front of G-d, the grace of G-d and His forgiveness is as you said, a gift. But before (as for as I'm aware of) someone is "saved" they must first have faith in Yeshua, without that faith they cannot be "saved".

 

[staledale]

Sorry not sure what you were getting at, but let me explain myself a bit. No one is sinless and no one is just in front of G-d, the grace of G-d and His forgiveness is as you said, a gift. But before (as for as I'm aware of) someone is "saved" they must first have faith in Yeshua, without that faith they cannot be "saved".

a quote from romans chapter 14,

starting at verse 8. For wether we live, we live unto the Lord; and wether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. For it is written (<-- its written in isiah somewhere, i didnt take the time to go look it up>>) As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

from this verse, and all of the verses in Romans, and of the new testament, and of the bible, i understand that all men shall one day acknowlege God, and Jesus to be the Son of God, and everyone shall have life thereof.

 

[BibleScribe]

a quote from romans chapter 14,

starting at verse 8. For wether we live, we live unto the Lord; and wether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. For it is written (<-- its written in isiah somewhere, i didnt take the time to go look it up>>) As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

from this verse, and all of the verses in Romans, and of the new testament, and of the bible, i understand that all men shall one day acknowlege God, and Jesus to be the Son of God, and everyone shall have life thereof.

Sorry but I don't see where it says every man would be "saved". Everyone shall give account, but then G-d will decide what happens to that person based on His judgement. It's faith in Yeshua, here that helps to keep you out of hell. I really can't see G-d allowing everyone into Heaven without faith in Yeshua. As I previously stated, I could be wrong, so it's open for discussion.

 

[staledale]

and dont you think that on that day, everyone shall have faith that Jesus is the Son of God. and they shall accept the grace of god, according to his suffering through Jesus.

 

[BibleScribe]

In my own personal view, that faith has to come before you die, whereas when you die, it's too late.

 

[staledale]

In my own personal view, that faith has to come before you die, whereas when you die, it's too late.

as far as i can see the bible does not teach that.

it says somewhere that his yoke is easy and his burdan is light. i think i understand what that means now

 

[SonicBOOM]

This is kind of wishful thinking though. Paul tells us to let God avenge and Jesus himself says that we are blessed if we "hunger and thirst for righteousness". Why would Jesus and Paul say these things if there was no justice. I don't agree that if someone says a special password or joins a certain group [like the prayer of salvation or 'becoming a christian'] than you get a free ticket. So your part right... Jesus says being born again will be the only way we can enter. No one really knows what being 'born again' really means anymore as it's such a catch term for 'becoming a christian'. Jesus says being born again is a birth of the spirit. I believe this birth happens when a heart is purified before the presence of God and we are truly transformed beings. If we have pure hearts we will see God as Jesus tells us. So we must have pure hearts. Only God can make a heart pure. I find it interesting how Jesus says that the subjects will get thrown out and the sinners will enter [if you want a direct reference please ask]. The 'subjects' had religion and because of their religion they would not let God purify their hearts sense they were so rule bound that they had set up God's law as an idol. Getting your heart purified is a very personal experience and no 'prayer of salvation' or 'christian conversing' can make this happen. it must come from being personal. If anyone wants proof than look at how Jesus 'evangelizes'. He never ever says that 'you must become a christian' or 'you must say a prayer'. He tries to get into their hearts in very personal ways. Whether it be just talking to the person [like he did with the woman at the well] or whether it be dealing with a person's greed [like the rich young ruler]. Jesus always touches us in very personal ways in order to purify our hearts. He would be successful but we seem to get in the way. this is why salvation is called a 'choice'.

 

[squint]

and dont you think that on that day, everyone shall have faith that Jesus is the Son of God. and they shall accept the grace of god, according to his suffering through Jesus.

Depends on "whose faith" we are looking at. IF it is according to Jesus' faith, then we find this statement:

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Here we see the faith of Jesus applied unto the all AND differentiated by the addition of "and to all who believe."

A nearly identical presentation is made in
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many will try to limit these statements and make God only "effective" upon their actions, which actions in every case took place either long before or long after The Cross. Jesus died for the "all men" while the "all men" were yet enemies. To say He and His "faith" are then ineffectual or eliminated based on the "performances" or lack thereof puts salvation back into the hands of finite and sin indwelt people. God came to save the captives of sin. It is "men" who present that God is a nearly complete failure in His Effort and blames then only mankind.

We see a similar statement in 1 Tim. 4:10 wherein God is the Saviour of all men "especially those who believe."

Jesus Himself represented to the people of a certain Samaritan town that He was The Saviour of the world. John the Apostle makes that representation twice, once in the Gospel and once in 1 John.

We hope for all mankind, but not all mankind are shown much light of life while in this life. Even Paul presented that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were "made" (past tense) enemies of the Gospel, so there is ample evidence even there in Romans 11 of the fact that post life, people will be saved.

Even the Catholic doctrines, unable to skirt these presentations in scripture allowed for a "purgatory" for the "potential" of being saved after death of the flesh. At least they didn't throw out the possibility of that, and rightfully so. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Anyone who is interested in "seeing" this direction will find their overwhelming scriptural evidence that this IS the case.

And I will footnote here that many believers in what is known as "Christian Universalism" STILL do not deny the eternal damnation scriptures. These believe that the fate of the Lake of Fire is reserved for the devil and his messengers who are ALSO found in the flesh of mankind, so those texts can also hold simultaneous to the belief in the Saviour of the World. There is a world that we cannot see or discern apart from Jesus revealing that world, which He did on nearly every page of the N.T. in separating people from the devil and his messengers in the flesh. We should not then be able to look at any person and see ONLY one entity where there is overwhelming scriptural evidence that this is not the case at all.

In addition we have Paul's teaching to the unbelievers on Mars Hill that all mankind are in fact Gods offspring. It is highly unlikely that God is going to burn His Own offspring alive in fire forever, as such a thing is NEVER presented in the scriptures. Not even the Jews of the O.T. believed that one, and they do not to this day because they were taught that ALL of the Israelites ARE Gods children, believer and unbeliever, from Gods Own Lips. (Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for examples in the O.T.)

If we read the New Testament there are as many as 50 plus different ways one can be "saved" but ultimately we are saved, divided, differentiated from and separated FROM the devil and his messengers and it is to them the eternal damnation scriptures were surely spoken to and they were spoken to IN the flesh of MANKIND.

enjoy!

squint

 

[SonicBOOM]

Depends on "whose faith" we are looking at. IF it is according to Jesus' faith, then we find this statement:

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Here we see the faith of Jesus applied unto the all AND differentiated by the addition of "and to all who believe."

A nearly identical presentation is made in
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many will try to limit these statements and make God only "effective" upon their actions, which actions in every case took place either long before or long after The Cross. Jesus died for the "all men" while the "all men" were yet enemies. To say He and His "faith" are then ineffectual or eliminated based on the "performances" or lack thereof puts salvation back into the hands of finite and sin indwelt people. God came to save the captives of sin. It is "men" who present that God is a nearly complete failure in His Effort and blames then only mankind.

We see a similar statement in 1 Tim. 4:10 wherein God is the Saviour of all men "especially those who believe."

Jesus Himself represented to the people of a certain Samaritan town that He was The Saviour of the world. John the Apostle makes that representation twice, once in the Gospel and once in 1 John.

We hope for all mankind, but not all mankind are shown much light of life while in this life. Even Paul presented that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were "made" (past tense) enemies of the Gospel, so there is ample evidence even there in Romans 11 of the fact that post life, people will be saved.

Even the Catholic doctrines, unable to skirt these presentations in scripture allowed for a "purgatory" for the "potential" of being saved after death of the flesh. At least they didn't throw out the possibility of that, and rightfully so. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Anyone who is interested in "seeing" this direction will find their overwhelming scriptural evidence that this IS the case.

And I will footnote here that many believers in what is known as "Christian Universalism" STILL do not deny the eternal damnation scriptures. These believe that the fate of the Lake of Fire is reserved for the devil and his messengers who are ALSO found in the flesh of mankind, so those texts can also hold simultaneous to the belief in the Saviour of the World. There is a world that we cannot see or discern apart from Jesus revealing that world, which He did on nearly every page of the N.T. in separating people from the devil and his messengers in the flesh. We should not then be able to look at any person and see ONLY one entity where there is overwhelming scriptural evidence that this is not the case at all.

In addition we have Paul's teaching to the unbelievers on Mars Hill that all mankind are in fact Gods offspring. It is highly unlikely that God is going to burn His Own offspring alive in fire forever, as such a thing is NEVER presented in the scriptures. Not even the Jews of the O.T. believed that one, and they do not to this day because they were taught that ALL of the Israelites ARE Gods children, believer and unbeliever, from Gods Own Lips. (Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for examples in the O.T.)

If we read the New Testament there are as many as 50 plus different ways one can be "saved" but ultimately we are saved, divided, differentiated from and separated FROM the devil and his messengers and it is to them the eternal damnation scriptures were surely spoken to and they were spoken to IN the flesh of MANKIND.

enjoy!

squint

this is interesting I've heard quite alot of universalism arguments and alot of them are incredibly convincing. Though I'm not entirely convinced because if this was true than that would mean that Christians have been wrong for a very VERY long time. People who believe in universalism usually point to passages where Paul tells us that our battle is not against flesh and blood and than they add that "why would God's battle be against flesh and blood?". There's also the reference in Revelation where "death and Hell are thrown into the fire". Alot of it is pretty convincing but I still can't shake the idea of the Creeds and how this almost entirely contradicts what Augustine was so solid on.

 

[HBCountry]

i clearly see the message of the New Testament to be that the Light of Jesus Christ is the news that everyone is saved by the grace of God. Jews and Gentiles alike, the circumcised, and the uncircumcised.

i have read through and this is my conclusion, if anyone can find fault with this please reason with me that i might see the truth.

If that is true then who are these ones?


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[staledale]

This is kind of wishful thinking though. Paul tells us to let God avenge and Jesus himself says that we are blessed if we "hunger and thirst for righteousness". Why would Jesus and Paul say these things if there was no justice. I don't agree that if someone says a special password or joins a certain group [like the prayer of salvation or 'becoming a christian'] than you get a free ticket. So your part right... Jesus says being born again will be the only way we can enter. No one really knows what being 'born again' really means anymore as it's such a catch term for 'becoming a christian'. Jesus says being born again is a birth of the spirit. I believe this birth happens when a heart is purified before the presence of God and we are truly transformed beings. If we have pure hearts we will see God as Jesus tells us. So we must have pure hearts. Only God can make a heart pure. I find it interesting how Jesus says that the subjects will get thrown out and the sinners will enter [if you want a direct reference please ask]. The 'subjects' had religion and because of their religion they would not let God purify their hearts sense they were so rule bound that they had set up God's law as an idol. Getting your heart purified is a very personal experience and no 'prayer of salvation' or 'christian conversing' can make this happen. it must come from being personal. If anyone wants proof than look at how Jesus 'evangelizes'. He never ever says that 'you must become a christian' or 'you must say a prayer'. He tries to get into their hearts in very personal ways. Whether it be just talking to the person [like he did with the woman at the well] or whether it be dealing with a person's greed [like the rich young ruler]. Jesus always touches us in very personal ways in order to purify our hearts. He would be successful but we seem to get in the way. this is why salvation is called a 'choice'.

i like your response.

I think those whom God has called to him are very blessed, but they shall also suffer for his glory.

its clearly not by anything someone does that they enter into heaven, but a gift of God, why then does Gods gift only extend to those who he gives it to on this earth? it doesnt, Gods gift is for everyone and those who he works through now become a light unto the world

 

[SonicBOOM]

If that is true then who are these ones?


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

indeed... and this is one of the main reasons why i believe salvation rests solely on having your heart transformed before God. A pure heart will not contain these things. Though also early in my faith this was one of the main passages that the enemy used to accuse me. So I might wanna add that salvation DOES rest on God and not on us... it's HIM who makes our heart pure. If we try to make ourselves pure we will make the same mistake the Pharisees and Scribes made [salvation by works]. It's important to remember that this may be a long long process for some people. given this view I think it's safe to say our salvation rests on our desire for a pure heart. granted alot of people don't desire a good heart. It's these people whom the wrath of God will fall on. I read C.S. Lewis' "the great divorce" and I love this book... It seems to display very well the direct connection between sin and a vile heart.

 

[staledale]

hmm, ive heard of this universalism but havnt looked into it.

as far as hell and damnation. i think we are all under damnation for our sins, that that is our penalty, but being forgiven by God, we our saved from our damnation for eternity

and i think that hell is a place where the fallen angels have gone, and people who were wealthy on earth, but corrupt in their ways (the story of the rich man and lazerous)

but even so, the power of God's forgiveness is greater than even hell.

 

[HBCountry]

indeed... and this is one of the main reasons why i believe salvation rests solely on having your heart transformed before God. A pure heart will not contain these things. Though also early in my faith this was one of the main passages that the enemy used to accuse me. So I might wanna add that salvation DOES rest on God and not on us... it's HIM who makes our heart pure. If we try to make ourselves pure we will make the same mistake the Pharisees and Scribes made [salvation by works]. It's important to remember that this may be a long long process for some people. given this view I think it's safe to say our salvation rests on our desire for a pure heart. granted alot of people don't desire a good heart. It's these people whom the wrath of God will fall on. I read C.S. Lewis' "the great divorce" and I love this book... It seems to display very well the direct connection between sin and a vile heart.

I think you are making salvation to hard. First comes the belief in Jesus the Christ as your Saviour. And then repentance.
Throughout one's life, you will always have to repent of any wrong doing or sin.
Your are right - God makes us pure - through forgiveness of our sins.

A pure heart is impossible for us to achieve while still in these human bodies. That is where repentance and forgiveness comes in.

 

[staledale]

indeed... and this is one of the main reasons why i believe salvation rests solely on having your heart transformed before God. A pure heart will not contain these things. Though also early in my faith this was one of the main passages that the enemy used to accuse me. So I might wanna add that salvation DOES rest on God and not on us... it's HIM who makes our heart pure. If we try to make ourselves pure we will make the same mistake the Pharisees and Scribes made [salvation by works]. It's important to remember that this may be a long long process for some people. given this view I think it's safe to say our salvation rests on our desire for a pure heart. granted alot of people don't desire a good heart. It's these people whom the wrath of God will fall on. I read C.S. Lewis' "the great divorce" and I love this book... It seems to display very well the direct connection between sin and a vile heart.

i think the verse in revelation giving account to who will be cast into the lake of fire(which is the second death) is describing those things which will be no more. fearfullness will be gone boldness in God will prevail. unbeleiveing will be gone for they shall all beleive. abomination sorcery, even lying will all be cast away. and then what will be left? only that which is good. this is Gods plan

and you say that the pharasees, desireing a pure heart, made the mistake of resting their faith on their works. but truly one must earnestly desire for a pure heart for God to grant him what he desires. and now your basing YOUR beleif on works.

the message is clear. Men do not get themselves into heaven. it is simply a gift. nothing that anyman can boast about.