Everyone has his own mother but...

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Let me throw the Orthodox viewpoint in here... we reject the Immaculate Conception that the Romans came up with. We don't believe that's what makes her different from the rest of us, so be careful not to throw we Orthodox in that same basket.

I haven't really read into the orthodox views on this so forgive my ignorance.

The Assumption of Mary really isn't something that should be such a big deal. Orthodoxy says that Mary reposed and then her body was taken into heaven. And why's that hard to believe? She was the mother of our Lord! Was not Moses taken into heaven? Why not the bringer of the new covenant?

It's hard for me to believe since I've yet to find the biblical backing for such an event.

 

[IamAdopted]

Reverence has more then one meaning to us Catholics. What we have is a communication problem.

We first have to establish a common language. That is

In our vocabulary there are three levels of respect. If I remember right there is Latria which is respect reserved for God alone, then there is hyperdulia which is similar to hero worhsip or reverence given to someone that is deeply loved; such a husband, wife,ect...and then there is dulia which is repect given to everyone.

The reverence given to Mary is hyperdulia, because she is the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. She fed Him, raised Him. We don't revere her inspite of God. We revere her because she is the work of God.

Peace

I understand that you have different levels of reverance. We are all the work of God. It was the grace of God that made Mary anything that she was just as it is His grace that makes any of us what we are in Him. For it is by grace that any of us have been saved. Blessed she was for she was indeed the mother of Jesus. She was chosen for this good work as Paul was for what he did and Peter and anyone of us.

 

[IamAdopted]

Can you tell me what it is you believe the new covenant is?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

It's hard for me to believe since I've yet to find the biblical backing for such an event.

And I've yet to find the biblical backing for this common belief that everything has to have biblical backing.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Can you tell me what it is you believe the new covenant is?

I assume this is addressed to me? I can sum it up pretty easily. Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 26:

" 26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament [i.e. covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

 

[IamAdopted]

I assume this is addressed to me? I can sum it up pretty easily. Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 26:

" 26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament [i.e. covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Yes the blood of Jesus shed for sin. This is the new covenant..

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Yes the blood of Jesus shed for sin. This is the new covenant..

So what was your point? From who did Jesus' blood come? Right, His mother, the blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Let me throw the Orthodox viewpoint in here... we reject the Immaculate Conception that the Romans came up with. We don't believe that's what makes her different from the rest of us, so be careful not to throw we Orthodox in that same basket.

The Assumption of Mary really isn't something that should be such a big deal. Orthodoxy says that Mary reposed and then her body was taken into heaven. And why's that hard to believe? She was the mother of our Lord! Was not Moses taken into heaven? Why not the bringer of the new covenant?

In the same category as that "Ever-virgin" business.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

In the same category as that "Ever-virgin" business.

I'll quote myself to answer this:

And I've yet to find the biblical backing for this common belief that everything has to have biblical backing.

Seriously. Part of the reason that protestantism is such a mess is because of that very idea. Biblical proof doesn't mean much when you have nothing telling you what the passages mean. And the Bible itself without its context of the Church is of little help in understanding Christianity -- just look at all the sola scripturists who all think they know what the Bible is saying, even though everybody is contradicting everybody else about everything.

 

[lionroar0]

I think you do a little more with Mary than just that don't you. I feel like i'm being intentionally misled. You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

Every Christian can offer prayer of intercession. Whether they are answered or not it up to Jesus.

ALso following your logic no Christians should offer prayers of intercession for someone else.

According to your logic then other Christians should not offer prayers for people to Jesus to help people leave addictions. Weshould not offer up prayer for healing. We should not offer up prayers for a safe trip.

These are prayer of intercession.

Your logic is not biblical. The Scriptures say to offer up prayers for each other.

Peace

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I'll quote myself to answer this:



Seriously. Part of the reason that protestantism is such a mess is because of that very idea. Biblical proof doesn't mean much when you have nothing telling you what the passages mean. And the Bible itself without its context of the Church is of little help in understanding Christianity -- just look at all the sola scripturists who all think they know what the Bible is saying, even though everybody is contradicting everybody else about everything.

I just meant that it's not a big deal.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I just meant that it's not a big deal.

Big deal how? It's a big deal when people come along 1500-2000 years after Pentecost and decide they know better than the Church. These may seem like minor points, and in the grand scheme of things it certainly doesn't matter, but what matters is that people's unwillingness to even concede to the possibility that Mary's body was taken into heaven reveals contempt for the tradition of the Church that we were instructed to hand down.

And again, I'm not Roman Catholic.

 

[CathNancy]

I think you do a little more with Mary than just that don't you. I feel like i'm being intentionally misled. You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

At the Wedding Feast of Canna didn't Mary intercede for the groom? Didn't she ask Jesus to help and He did by changing the water into wine. Why would we think that this is only something that Jesus would do on earth? Don't we expect to have an even closer relationship with Jesus in heaven than we do on earth? I know that is my hope, and if this is the case, why would Mary not be able to intercede for us now?

One thing that I don't really understand is that I have heard it said on this forum, not this thread, that Mary is only a vessel used by God. I do not think of my own mother as only a vessel, so why would I think that is the way Jesus would view His mother?

As far as the Assumption of Mary, I believe in the resurrection of the body at the end of time, so I do not see why Jesus could not have done this for His mother a little sooner.

Mary is better than I am. Mary did the will of God, but try as I may, I do not. We revere all of the saints, and Mary, the greatest of all the saints. Mary holds a unique position in God's plan for our salvation. Only she is the Mother of God, only she by her fiat, conceived by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Him, raised Him and stood at the foot of the cross, fulfilling the words of Simeon, and you yourself a sword shall pierce.

Mary is not divine and is not to be worshiped, only God is to be worshiped, however, we do owe her the honor and reverence her own Son gave to her.

Peace,
Nancy

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I don't think Mary is better than you, sorry. Interceded? Nobody prayed to Mary at that feast, she just went and asked Jesus a favor to me..

I say it's not a big deal, because it has nothing to do with me or my salvation, whether it happened or not. I don't really dismiss or support the Assumption or the "Ever-virgin" stuff.

 

[GrandGuignol]

At the Wedding Feast of Canna didn't Mary intercede for the groom? Didn't she ask Jesus to help and He did by changing the water into wine. Why would we think that this is only something that Jesus would do on earth? Don't we expect to have an even closer relationship with Jesus in heaven than we do on earth? I know that is my hope, and if this is the case, why would Mary not be able to intercede for us now?

One thing that I don't really understand is that I have heard it said on this forum, not this thread, that Mary is only a vessel used by God. I do not think of my own mother as only a vessel, so why would I think that is the way Jesus would view His mother?

As far as the Assumption of Mary, I believe in the resurrection of the body at the end of time, so I do not see why Jesus could not have done this for His mother a little sooner.

Mary is better than I am. Mary did the will of God, but try as I may, I do not. We revere all of the saints, and Mary, the greatest of all the saints. Mary holds a unique position in God's plan for our salvation. Only she is the Mother of God, only she by her fiat, conceived by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Him, raised Him and stood at the foot of the cross, fulfilling the words of Simeon, and you yourself a sword shall pierce.

Mary is not divine and is not to be worshiped, only God is to be worshiped, however, we do owe her the honor and reverence her own Son gave to her.

Peace,
Nancy

Didn't Jesus shoot her down for that?

Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Thats not Yes Mother, thats (waggyFinger)woman you need to let me do my business when i say.

Jesus went against his mothers wishes at 12. when they found him, and asked him why he had left them, he told his mother he had to his fathers business.
Paul wrote the rule book for Gentile conversion, yet not once did he mention Mary, as a matter of fact he spoke against reverence to any but Christ.

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Alot of people were great in the kingdom of Christ

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Act 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Maybe Stephen was Greater than Mary. i nor anyone but God can say. Jesus is certainly not a respector of persons, like we are. He has no special Love for his Brother over yours, Nore his mother over yours. Mary was blessed, Abraham was blessed also. Who was Greater, We cannot know.

Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Jesus is the only one you need to call to. The only one who can help you. The only one, as in, no other. Jesus intercedes for Mary (a sinner), just as he does for David(a sinner), and me(a sinner).

 

[PaladinValer]

How so?

I already answered that.

She does not give us of her spirit.

Straw Man.

God gives us His spirit and we receive salvation through the blood of Jesus and our belief in Him. So now how does Mary give us anything?

She gave birth to and is thus Mother of:

God
Grace
Love
Mercy
Salvation
The Law
The New Covenant
Perfection
Healing
Truth
Life

Unless you don't think Jesus is any of those things, which, if you did, you would not be an orthodox Christian.

She was an earthly being that was born of man and woman.

Who gave birth to God.

Right, but Mary has no authority over us, and we have no obligation to show her reverence, blessed though she is..

Straw Man.

No.. I just mean Mary isn't here.

Straw Man.

so why reverence her as if she is and why say she is our mother if she is not divine?

I answered before how she is our spiritual Mother.

Yes, she is blessed. She had the honor of bearing Christ. But I am blessed too.

You are not blessed in the same way she is. That is completely false.

We have no obligation to show her reverence.

See my immediate above.

That verse does not imply that we are to revere/venerate Mary.

Historically, why have Christians done so since her passing then?! Or since Pentecost when she was still living on Earth?!

I haven't really read into the orthodox views on this so forgive my ignorance.

It's hard for me to believe since I've yet to find the biblical backing for such an event.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity isn't in Scripture either.

In the same category as that "Ever-virgin" business.

Martin Luther believed in that.
So did John Calvin
And it is clear that the Early Church did...after all...it was a canon of the Ecumenical Councils.

I just meant that it's not a big deal.

Yes it is a big deal.

I don't think Mary is better than you, sorry. Interceded? Nobody prayed to Mary at that feast, she just went and asked Jesus a favor to me.

No one had to ask her; she did it out of the kindness and compassion of her motherly heart.

Therefore, Straw Man.

I say it's not a big deal, because it has nothing to do with me or my salvation, whether it happened or not. I don't really dismiss or support the Assumption or the "Ever-virgin" stuff.

Then how about doing some actual research?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

the Trinity as a word does not exist, but there is much evidence that it does.

She gave birth to and is thus Mother of:

God
Grace
Love
Mercy
Salvation
The Law
The New Covenant
Perfection
Healing
Truth
Life

to say she is the mother of these things is to say that Christ did not have them before he was born of her.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

the Trinity as a word does not exist, but there is much evidence that it does.

...

to say she is the mother of these things is to say that Christ did not have them before he was born of her.

Actually, no it isn't. Do we need to review what happened in the Incarnation now?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

there is plenty of biblical evidence of the Trinity, although the word Trinity doesn't appear in the text. Where is the biblical evidence for the Assumption?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Actually, no it isn't. Do we need to review what happened in the Incarnation now?

moth·er1

/ˈmʌð

ər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muhth

-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
15.to be the mother of; give origin or rise to.
16.to acknowledge oneself the author of; assume as one's own.
17.to care for or protect like a mother; act maternally toward. –verb (used without object)
18.to perform the tasks or duties of a female parent; act maternally: a woman with a need to mother. —Idiom
19.mother of all, the greatest or most notable example of: the mother of all mystery novels.

Do you understand why this issue isn't sitting well with me?