Everyone has his own mother but...

[SeraphimSarov]

In the earthly sense. She is no longer on earth.. Unless the atheists are correct, then the remains are all that are left..

"Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life..."

Death has been defeated. The only dead are those who reject God.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Right, but Mary has no authority over us, and we have no obligation to show her reverence, blessed though she is..

 

[lionroar0]

Right, but Mary has no authority over us, and we have no obligation to show her reverence, blessed though she is..

Not the same reverence that we give to God but we should respect her as the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I'm sensing some insincerity in your words. I spent most of my youth in and out of catholic church, but I never paid attention. Once I finally cared enough to study the bible I did so on my own accord, and I only understand mary as blessed, but not divine.

If u had paid attention then u would have known that the CC does not teeach that Mary is divine.

Peace

 

[Apollo Celestio]

So now Christianity is "earthly"?

No.. I just mean Mary isn't here.

 

[IamAdopted]

If u had paid attention then u would have known that the CC does not teeach that Mary is divine.

Peace

so why reverence her as if she is and why say she is our mother if she is not divine?

 

[lionroar0]

so why reverence her as if she is and why say she is our mother if she is not divine?

Reverence has more then one meaning to us Catholics. What we have is a communication problem.

We first have to establish a common language. That is

In our vocabulary there are three levels of respect. If I remember right there is Latria which is respect reserved for God alone, then there is hyperdulia which is similar to hero worhsip or reverence given to someone that is deeply loved; such a husband, wife,ect...and then there is dulia which is repect given to everyone.

The reverence given to Mary is hyperdulia, because she is the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. She fed Him, raised Him. We don't revere her inspite of God. We revere her because she is the work of God.

Peace

 

[GrandGuignol]

Reverence has more then one meaning to us Catholics. What we have is a communication problem.

We first have to establish a common language. That is

In our vocabulary there are three levels of respect. If I remember right there is Latria which is respect reserved for God alone, then there is hyperdulia which is similar to hero worhsip or reverence given to someone that is deeply loved; such a husband, wife,ect...and then there is dulia which is repect given to everyone.

The reverence given to Mary is hyperdulia, because she is the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. She fed Him, raised Him. We don't revere her inspite of God. We revere her because she is the work of God.

And so then should the same reverence be given to all of the faithful. Who was greater Mary because she was loved, or John who was Jesus most beloved apostle. What about David? God referred to him as the apple of his eye. Shouldn't he be given the same reverence. Should we pray to Abraham to make intercession, or Moses? Are they less than Mary? Joseph was faithful also, raising a son he knew was not his own, because through faith he believed God.

 

[Thekla]

And so then should the same reverence be given to all of the faithful. Who was greater Mary because she was loved, or John who was Jesus most beloved apostle. What about David? God referred to him as the apple of his eye. Shouldn't he be given the same reverence. Should we pray to Abraham to make intercession, or Moses? Are they less than Mary? Joseph was faithful also, raising a son he knew was not his own, because through faith he believed God.

we should (and do) show reverence to all the faithful (OT, NT and beyond); we celebrate the Divine Liturgy and or read of their lives on the day of their commemoration. When their love for God is recorded in the Bible, the daily reading reflects this. We ask for their prayers also.

 

[GrandGuignol]

I think you do a little more with Mary than just that don't you. I feel like i'm being intentionally misled. You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Right, but Mary has no authority over us, and we have no obligation to show her reverence, blessed though she is..

I'm trying to understand here... is the fact that all generations shall call her blessed just meaningless in practice? Is it just a theoretical concept that looks pretty in our Bibles but don't actually have any impact in the real world? Is the fact that Jesus said, "Behold, your mother" on the cross just totally meaningless? (Of course people these days tend to think that means nothing for us today, but why in the world is it in the Bible then...?)

I just don't get it. And I may as well add that people who pay no attention to Mary and look at her as just another dead person seem a lot more likely to say heretical things like Jesus Christ's natures were totally separable or that Christ wasn't God when He was hung on the cross or that Christ wasn't actually human and so on ad nauseum... why is this? Because people who try to completely minimize Mary's role in salvation (and often this is a reaction to veneration of Mary by the ancient Churches, namely the Roman Church) end up with a very skewed view of the Incarnation, which leads to all sorts of heresy.

It's all Christological. We don't confess Mary to be the Theotokos just because we like her. We don't venerate her because we think she is a demi-goddess or something crazy like that. Unfortunately that seems to be the popular perception, but it's just plain wrong.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I think you do a little more with Mary than just that don't you. I feel like i'm being intentionally misled. You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

You think? You feel? What you think and feel don't matter when you've got nothing to back it up. Try involving yourself in the life of the Orthodox Church for awhile before making these accusations. That you would ask such ridiculous questions tells me that you don't really care what we answer; your mind is made up.

I'll say it again -- your thoughts and feelings don't matter in light of the fact that you're totally wrong.

 

[Thekla]

I think you do a little more with Mary than just that don't you. I feel like i'm being intentionally misled. You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

is "you" me ?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

is "you" me ?

Sure sounded that way. If not, I will delete my post.

 

[GrandGuignol]

That you would ask such ridiculous questions tells me that you don't really care what we answer; your mind is made up.

I'll say it again -- your thoughts and feelings don't matter in light of the fact that you're totally wrong.

They matter to me. i admit i don't know much about Catholicism. I'm southern born baptist. Making everything i've asked fair questions considering my ignorance. if you would have answered as bluntly as i asked instead of judging my motive i wouldn't have to ask again.

You talk as if Mary isn't given anymore reverence than any other of Gods children, but that is not the case is it? Prayers are offered up to mary as if she controled Jesus heart. As if she Could make intersession, isn't she.

is "you" me ?

You is catholics in general.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

if you would have answered as bluntly as i asked instead of judging my motive i wouldn't have to ask again.

Your motives were clear by the way you asked your questions. The fact that you said that you feel as if you're being misled says it all.

You is catholics in general.

Neither Thekla nor I are Roman Catholics.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I'm trying to understand here... is the fact that all generations shall call her blessed just meaningless in practice? Is it just a theoretical concept that looks pretty in our Bibles but don't actually have any impact in the real world? Is the fact that Jesus said, "Behold, your mother" on the cross just totally meaningless? (Of course people these days tend to think that means nothing for us today, but why in the world is it in the Bible then...?)

I just don't get it. And I may as well add that people who pay no attention to Mary and look at her as just another dead person seem a lot more likely to say heretical things like Jesus Christ's natures were totally separable or that Christ wasn't God when He was hung on the cross or that Christ wasn't actually human and so on ad nauseum... why is this? Because people who try to completely minimize Mary's role in salvation (and often this is a reaction to veneration of Mary by the ancient Churches, namely the Roman Church) end up with a very skewed view of the Incarnation, which leads to all sorts of heresy.

It's all Christological. We don't confess Mary to be the Theotokos just because we like her. We don't venerate her because we think she is a demi-goddess or something crazy like that. Unfortunately that seems to be the popular perception, but it's just plain wrong.

Yes, she is blessed. She had the honor of bearing Christ. But I am blessed too. And you are as well. We have no obligation to show her reverence. That verse does not imply that we are to revere/venerate Mary. I always thought that it was the direct command that he gave to the disciple/ how to treat older women?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Yes, she is blessed. She had the honor of bearing Christ. But I am blessed too. And you are as well. We have no obligation to show her reverence. That verse does not imply that we are to revere/venerate Mary. I always thought that it was the direct command that he gave to the disciple/ how to treat older women?

First, thank you for being civil.

I would argue that Mary enjoyed a far greater blessing than any of us have had. She was the first Christian. She carried Christ in her womb. She mothered Him, and He is her Son. No other human in history can claim to have had such a relationship with Jesus Christ. We are all brought into the family by our baptisms , but still -- just imagine an angel appearing to you as a young teen and telling you that you're going to bring God into the world!

I think that is sufficient reason to venerate Mary. Remember, veneration is nothing akin to worship -- it is to hold in high regard. As far as Christ's words to the apostle from the cross, I disagree that it was a statement about how to treat older women. St. Paul actually gives us pretty good instructions about that, and I don't recall ever having seen the two verses linked that way. For most of Christian history, that verse was taken to mean much more than that.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

If u had paid attention then u would have known that the CC does not teeach that Mary is divine.

Peace

what about her sinless nature? I understand that she is worthy of great respect for being the mother of Christ, but to say she is any different than any other person, but the whole sinless thing and the "assumption of mary " throws me for a loop.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

what about her sinless nature? I understand that she is worthy of great respect for being the mother of Christ, but to say she is any different than any other person, but the whole sinless thing and the "assumption of mary " throws me for a loop.

Let me throw the Orthodox viewpoint in here... we reject the Immaculate Conception that the Romans came up with. We don't believe that's what makes her different from the rest of us, so be careful not to throw we Orthodox in that same basket.

The Assumption of Mary really isn't something that should be such a big deal. Orthodoxy says that Mary reposed and then her body was taken into heaven. And why's that hard to believe? She was the mother of our Lord! Was not Moses taken into heaven? Why not the bringer of the new covenant?