Everyone goes to hell, right?

[workmx]

Jesus is very clear that he supports the 613 commandments from the Old Testament:

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Given this is it clear that everyone who does not uphold every one of the 613 commandments only gets "heaven lite".

And if we do not uphold the 613 commandments and are less righteous than scribes and Pharisees, will go to hell.

This means that the less righteous who have not killed all the descendents of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) go to hell.

The less righteous who have at some stage been rebellious (Deut. 21:18) go to hell.

Same for anyone who failed to return a lost object (Deut. 22).

Or a man who has shaved his beard (Lev. 19:27) or head (Lev. 19:27).

Or failed to say the "Shema Yisrael" prayer twice daily (Deut. 6:7).

So, I am assuming that everyone goes to hell.

Is that correct?

 

[dcalling]

Jesus is very clear that he supports the 613 commandments from the Old Testament:



Given this is it clear that everyone who does not uphold every one of the 613 commandments only gets "heaven lite".

And if we do not uphold the 613 commandments and are less righteous than scribes and Pharisees, will go to hell.

This means that the less righteous who have not killed all the descendents of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) go to hell.

The less righteous who have at some stage been rebellious (Deut. 21:18) go to hell.

Same for anyone who failed to return a lost object (Deut. 22).

Or a man who has shaved his beard (Lev. 19:27) or head (Lev. 19:27).

Or failed to say the "Shema Yisrael" prayer twice daily (Deut. 6:7).

So, I am assuming that everyone goes to hell.

Is that correct?

It says " shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven", not "goes to hell". That is a huge difference.

And given the examples of some of the "scribes and Pharisees" in the Bible, I doubt Jesus is using them as an good example here.

 

[workmx]

So, there are two parts here:

1.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, everyone who wants to go to heaven must obey the 613 OT commandments.

2.

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Additionally, anyone who is not a righteous as a scribe or pharisee will go to hell. Given that Pharisees were the authrorities for the interpretation of Jewish law, I assume that jesus means that you have to know the law/commandments better than an expert.

Given that most, if not all, people do not obey the 613 commandments and are not as righteous as a scribe/pharisee, everyone goes to hell.

 

[dcalling]

So, there are two parts here:

1.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, everyone who wants to go to heaven must obey the 613 OT commandments.

Let's make it simple, do you see any "hell" in your quote? "Least in the kindom of heaven", the guy need to be in heaven in the first place before he can be called the least in heaven.

 

[seashale76]

OP- have you actually read the New Testament? If you had, then you would be aware that the Council of Jerusalem (the first Ecumenical Council) is detailed in the book of Acts, wherein it was decided that Christians were not to follow the 613 laws.

In fact, the following was decided:
Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Also, no to the hell thing. Do you even know what hell is?

 

[Lukaris]

Also re the law:

Romans 13:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

For Christians it is by faith:
Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


For non Christians the conscience is judged:
Romans 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[gord44]

One has to go to hell to get the heaven.

 

[Joshua260]

Jesus is very clear that he supports the 613 commandments from the Old Testament:



Given this is it clear that everyone who does not uphold every one of the 613 commandments only gets "heaven lite".

And if we do not uphold the 613 commandments and are less righteous than scribes and Pharisees, will go to hell.

This means that the less righteous who have not killed all the descendents of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) go to hell.

The less righteous who have at some stage been rebellious (Deut. 21:18) go to hell.

Same for anyone who failed to return a lost object (Deut. 22).

Or a man who has shaved his beard (Lev. 19:27) or head (Lev. 19:27).

Or failed to say the "Shema Yisrael" prayer twice daily (Deut. 6:7).

So, I am assuming that everyone goes to hell.

Is that correct?

The saved will not enter heaven based on their own righteousness, but only by the righteousness of Jesus which covers them.

 

[Angelquill]

Jesus is very clear that he supports the 613 commandments from the Old Testament:



Given this is it clear that everyone who does not uphold every one of the 613 commandments only gets "heaven lite".

And if we do not uphold the 613 commandments and are less righteous than scribes and Pharisees, will go to hell.

This means that the less righteous who have not killed all the descendents of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) go to hell.

The less righteous who have at some stage been rebellious (Deut. 21:18) go to hell.

Same for anyone who failed to return a lost object (Deut. 22).

Or a man who has shaved his beard (Lev. 19:27) or head (Lev. 19:27).

Or failed to say the "Shema Yisrael" prayer twice daily (Deut. 6:7).

So, I am assuming that everyone goes to hell.

Is that correct?

The bad news is that every Christian you've ever met, or will ever meet, is a sinner, just like everyone else. That's right, every one, from the pastor or minister himself, to the members of the choir, the ushers who bring the collection plates around, the sweet little lady with the bald spot who sits in the third pew every Sunday...right down to the guy who comes in once or twice a month to mow the grass. Yep, every single ever loving one of them is a dirty, rotten sinner....just like everyone else.

The good news...or I should say "Good News"...is that Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners. He loves us...each and every nasty sinner of us...He loves us so much that He died for us.

So, yeah, we're sinners, deserving of hell...but, by the grace of God, we are saved sinners...and we are working to clean ourselves up so that we might be worthy of Him.

I do not agree with everything you said, btw, but this is not the place to discuss that.
Also, I would like to make you aware that not all Christians believe in a literal hell. You might want to explore that.

Anyhow, I would invite you to come and learn more about the Lord's salvation and what it means. It's all about the LOVE, baby.....

[FONT=Kino MT, fantasy][/FONT]​

 

[workmx]

OP- have you actually read the New Testament? If you had, then you would be aware that the Council of Jerusalem (the first Ecumenical Council) is detailed in the book of Acts, wherein it was decided that Christians were not to follow the 613 laws.

Wow! What hubris.

Of course I have read the bible.

Actually I have read it twice.

Have you read it?

In fact, the following was decided:
Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Also, no to the hell thing. Do you even know what hell is?

So, why does jesus contradict them?

Was Council of Jerusalem wrong?

Or is Acts wrong?

Was jesus wrong?

But I that is the point of the thread, I guess.

 

[workmx]

Also, no to the hell thing. Do you even know what hell is?

I know that the bible says nothing about hell ("Sheol", "Tartarus," "Hades", and "Gehenna", on the other hand...)

 

[workmx]

Let's make it simple, do you see any "hell" in your quote? "Least in the kindom of heaven", the guy need to be in heaven in the first place before he can be called the least in heaven.

So, you are having a case for purgatory?

It is clear from the quote: heaven or not heaven.

So, you are saying that it is: heaven or hell or purgatory?

 

[workmx]

Also re the law:

Romans 13:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

For Christians it is by faith:
Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


For non Christians the conscience is judged:
Romans 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I am not interested in those quotes. Please stay on topic and address the quote I mentioned.

 

[workmx]

One has to go to hell to get the heaven.

Interesting.

 

[workmx]

The saved will not enter heaven based on their own righteousness, but only by the righteousness of Jesus which covers them.

That contradicts what the quote says.

Was jesus wrong on this point?

 

[workmx]

The bad news is that every Christian you've ever met, or will ever meet, is a sinner, just like everyone else. That's right, every one, from the pastor or minister himself, to the members of the choir, the ushers who bring the collection plates around, the sweet little lady with the bald spot who sits in the third pew every Sunday...right down to the guy who comes in once or twice a month to mow the grass. Yep, every single ever loving one of them is a dirty, rotten sinner....just like everyone else.

The good news...or I should say "Good News"...is that Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners. He loves us...each and every nasty sinner of us...He loves us so much that He died for us.

So, yeah, we're sinners, deserving of hell...but, by the grace of God, we are saved sinners...and we are working to clean ourselves up so that we might be worthy of Him.

I do not agree with everything you said, btw, but this is not the place to discuss that.
Also, I would like to make you aware that not all Christians believe in a literal hell. You might want to explore that.

Anyhow, I would invite you to come and learn more about the Lord's salvation and what it means. It's all about the LOVE, baby.....

Sin... hmm? That is a curious idea.

What is sin?

And why did god make us with sin?

I don't see much love in the bible: IMO it reads more like the diary of a sadist.

 

[Lukaris]

I am not interested in those quotes. Please stay on topic and address the quote I mentioned.

There is no commitment to 613 laws in the Gospel. If you reject what I have quoted then you reject the Gospel & how Christ fulfilled the law which is, naturally, your right to do so. St. Paul states, "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law & the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe. For there is no difference: for all have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3: 21-24).

 

[workmx]

There is no commitment to 613 laws in the Gospel. If you reject what I have quoted then you reject the Gospel & how Christ fulfilled the law which is, naturally, your right to do so. St. Paul states, "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law & the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe. For there is no difference: for all have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3: 21-24).

Yes there is.

It is in the OP. Here it is again, if you missed it:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Why do christains always want to change the topic when I mention this passage?

Many christians want to talk about St. Paul and Romans.

I want to talk about what JESUS said.

Unless you want to reject jesus, which is, naturally, your right to do.

 

[Joshua260]

That contradicts what the quote says.

Was jesus wrong on this point?

Where is the contradiction between what I said:

"The saved will not enter heaven based on their own righteousness, but only by the righteousness of Jesus which covers them."

and

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[workmx]

Where is the contradiction between what I said:

"The saved will not enter heaven based on their own righteousness, but only by the righteousness of Jesus which covers them."

and

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

No.

Jesus says: "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

He says nothing about his own righteousness.

It is clear in the passage.

You are attempting to put words in his mouth.

Or was jesus wrong?