Everyone agrees with Eph 2:8-10 but what about Romans 10:9-10?

[BobRyan]

Everyone (or almost everyone?) agrees with Eph 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Finding the "amen" and "I believe that" comments in response tot Eph 2 is pretty easy and we thank God for that.

=========================================
But what about Romans 10 ??


Rom 10 makes the process of salvation pretty clear
9 ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

That works because John 12:32 Tells us that God draws all mankind to Him (supernaturally of course). God's drawing enables the choice to choose the Gospel that depravity dissables.

The ability to have faith comes from God "to each one is given a measure of faith" Rom 12.

But the choice to put your faith in Christ or not - is up to the person.

===================== The result?

But only the "few" of Matt 7 - choose to do so.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


"He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11

God commenting on the failure of His chosen - complains as follows

"What more was there to do -- other than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

===============

Question: How many here have seen these texts in regard to the process of salvation they describe -- before?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10... ahh "there's the rub" as they say.

In Matt 18 we see forgiveness revoked "I forgave you all that debt" is followed by "hand him over until he should repay all".

Romans 11 has a similar sequence "you stand only by your faith... you should fear for if He did not spare them He may not spare you either".

 

[mlepfitjw]

Bobryan, I don't understand what you are asking exactly lol. Could you be more clear?

 

[BobRyan]

Bobryan, I don't understand what you are asking exactly lol. Could you be more clear?

I see threads where Eph 2 is typically leading the subject in the OP... but always in those cases Romans 10 is missing, so then I post it.

 

[fhansen]

Everyone (or almost everyone?) agrees with Eph 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Finding the "amen" and "I believe that" comments in response tot Eph 2 is pretty easy and we thank God for that.

=========================================
But what about Romans 10 ??


Rom 10 makes the process of salvation pretty clear
9 ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

That works because John 12:32 Tells us that God draws all mankind to Him (supernaturally of course). God's drawing enables the choice to choose the Gospel that depravity dissables.

The ability to have faith comes from God "to each one is given a measure of faith" Rom 12.

But the choice to put your faith in Christ or not - is up to the person.

===================== The result?

But only the "few" of Matt 7 - choose to do so.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


"He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11

God commenting on the failure of His chosen - complains as follows

"What more was there to do -- other than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

===============

Question: How many here have seen these texts in regard to the process of salvation they describe -- before?

It’s all optional, including doing the good works prepared for us in advance. Salvation isn’t just a onetime event or choice but a series of choices that we persevere in throughout our lives. We must walk in obedience after the first act of obedience: the faith that brings us into the family of God to begin with. For example:

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.” Matt 6:14-15

So the will of man is always involved, weakly at first and then challenged and drawn into increasing conviction and embracing of God and His will for us. And this involvement of the human will, at God’s discretion, has been the continuous understanding of His church.

 

[A_Thinker]

So the will of man is always involved, weakly at first and then challenged and drawn into increasing conviction and embracing of God and His will for us. And this involvement of the human will, at God’s discretion, has been the continuous understanding of His church.

So ... is it your position that, though, we are not reborn through the will of man, per John 1 ...

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

... that we are kept by the will of man ?

 

[fhansen]

So ... is it your position that, though, we are not reborn through the will of man, per John 1 ...

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

... that we are kept by the will of man ?

Man cannot possibly find and approach God. Man is lost and God must find-and enable-him. But grace is always resistible. Man can still say “no”, from Eden until this day. In any case it’s not God’s will that any should perish. As we receive Him, He empowers us. It’s not either/or, but both/and, from the beginning to the end of our walk here on earth with God even as it’s all initiated by Him.

 

[Davy]

I see threads where Eph 2 is typically leading the subject in the OP... but always in those cases Romans 10 is missing, so then I post it.

Yeah, but Romans 10 doesn't stand alone. Paul is actually preparing for Romans 11 there. And Romans 11 is an explanation of 'why' the unbelieving of Paul's brethren have been spiritually blinded by God, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. And when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that blindness will be removed from the Jews. That means then will be their opportunity to hear and believe on Jesus Christ. Zechariah 12 at the end of the chapter goes into that, so does Luke 23 about the Blessed are the barren idea from Isaiah 54. Even those who will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them at Christ's appearing is about those deceived who will suddenly feel ashamed when He returns.

 

[BBAS 64]

Everyone (or almost everyone?) agrees with Eph 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Finding the "amen" and "I believe that" comments in response tot Eph 2 is pretty easy and we thank God for that.

=========================================
But what about Romans 10 ??


Rom 10 makes the process of salvation pretty clear
9 ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Good Day, Bob Ryan

Much more meaning full to have the quote in a wider context:

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Seeing that God under the New Covent removes our hearts of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, and put His spirt in us that is the cause of our walking in his statues. He writes His law on our Hearts that action is what makes us God's people.

So yes the word is near our Hearts and Mouth so we are able to believe and we do "because" we do confess. That confession and belief is the tangible result of the action of God.

That works because John 12:32 Tells us that God draws all mankind to Him (supernaturally of course). God's drawing enables the choice to choose the Gospel that depravity dissables.

The ability to have faith comes from God "to each one is given a measure of faith" Rom 12.

But the choice to put your faith in Christ or not - is up to the person.

===================== The result?

But only the "few" of Matt 7 - choose to do so.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


"He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11

God commenting on the failure of His chosen - complains as follows

"What more was there to do -- other than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

===============

Scripture tells us why Jesus proclaimed John 12:32 again context. Sorry I will stick with what scripture says. You are clearly confusing John 6 with John 12.

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Matt 7 is a part of the total sermon recommend you read MLJ on the sermon on the mount. But he never said Few choose to do so... again I will stick with the text in it's own context.

Again Context;

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


We are born by the will of God His choice, not our will. We do chose but again they are merely results of the work of God simple cause and effect.

God is the cause Salvation is all of the Lord and his arm is not to short to save once he purposes to do so.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah, but Romans 10 doesn't stand alone

No doubt... but it stands.

. Paul is actually preparing for Romans 11 there. And Romans 11 is an explanation of 'why' the unbelieving of Paul's brethren have been spiritually blinded by God, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. .

Paul says in Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

And repeats the same lesson from Rom 10
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[BobRyan]

Good Day, Bob Ryan

Much more meaning full to have the quote in a wider context:

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

9 ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

You posit the new birth as inserted before he confesses and believes so that the new birth is what "results in salvation" but the text does not say that -- you simply insert it.

The text says " for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

The new birth comes after the believing and confessing.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. John 16 reminds us that the heart of all mankind is convicted by the Holy Spirit of sin and righteousness and judgment. That convicted heart can choose to believe and confess and the result will be the miracle of the new birth which is also the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

That (Rom 10 sequence) works because John 12:32 Tells us that God draws all mankind to Him (supernaturally of course). God's drawing enables the choice to choose the Gospel that depravity dissables.

The ability to have faith comes from God "to each one is given a measure of faith" Rom 12.

But the choice to put your faith in Christ or not - is up to the person.

===================== The result?

But only the "few" of Matt 7 - choose to do so.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11

God commenting on the failure of His chosen - complains as follows
"What more was there to do -- other than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

Scripture tells us why Jesus proclaimed John 12:32 again context. Sorry I will stick with what scripture says. You are clearly confusing John 6 with John 12.

John 12 is in the context of the drawing of John 6. They are not the same text but they are in agreement.

John 12:32 If I be lifted up I will "draw all mankind unto Me".

The supernatural drawing of all mankind to Christ - is the direct result of the gospel.
that is also what we see in 1 John 2:2 where all mankind are the intended beneficiary of the atonement "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD"

Again Context;

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

shows that the direct initiative of God does not force the person to believe or be born again - they still have free will and can choose to accept or reject.

We are born by the will of God His choice, not our will.

Indeed He sovereignly chose to send His Son "to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14 but that does not mean the world will accept.

This gets us back to Romans 10 again.

And that is how it can happen that we find God commenting on the failure of His chosen - complains as follows
"What more was there to do -- other than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

(Which I note is not addressed in your response)

 

[Davy]

No doubt... but it stands.



Paul says in Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

And repeats the same lesson from Rom 10
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off.

Like I said, you cannot just ISOLATE the Romans 10 chapter as if Romans 11 doesn't exist. Being selective with 'fragments' of God's Word while disregarding the rest is what Lord Jesus warned His disciples about with the leaven doctrines of men (Matthew 16:6-12).