Every jot and tittle

expos4ever

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Paul quotes the OT 37% of the time he writes in the NT, that is a fact! The OT, the Torah in particular, gives us God's will, His desire, His differentiation between sin and righteousness... by the letter. In the Prophets, and even more so in the NT, we see the spirit behind the letter. There is no new commandments in the NT.... nor has there been anything added. What we have is the depth behind the letter revealed in his words (and the words of the NT authors) and in his actions.
You claim there are no new commandments? Well, Jesus certainly does modify elements of the Law:

You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Now: You say:

Paul quotes the OT 37% of the time he writes in the NT, that is a fact! The OT, the Torah in particular, gives us God's will, His desire, His differentiation between sin and righteousness... by the letter.

...but Paul says:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
 
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expos4ever

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Are you kidding? Are you not even aware that in the verses you cited, Paul is referring to his life before he was saved? And that is exactly why he was talking in the past. However in Rom 7:25 he is now talking in present tense terms of now being saved. "So then with my mind I myself serve (present tense) the law of God...." Thus as a saved person, Paul still served the law of God.
I am most certainly not kidding. And note: my position is essentially that of a highly respected Biblical scholar: NT Wright. I will not repeat the argument I have already made - it is there for all to evaluate.
 
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John Helpher

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ut Jesus did change certain Laws before the cross, and implemented NEW commands.

I think we have agreement here. The whole point of saying the law is fulfilled is not to say that there no longer is any law, but rather that Jesus represents a graduation into a fuller understanding of God's ways. Jesus expected obedience. He gave his followers instructions on what to do. That is the purpose of the video; to demonstrate that it is Jesus' teachings we need to follow; in doing that we will not only be covering the old ways, but also the new (because the new is a more advanced version of the old).
 
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expos4ever

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Paul was a dead man walking. The law had inflamed the sin in his flesh and Paul was imprisoned in that body of death.

Paul's present state was always a dead man walking, sentenced to death by the law. Only in Christ was Paul freed from that sting of death.
Absolutely correct - Romans 7 shows exactly what you suggest: The Law of Moses indeed does stir up sinful passions! People are going to go ape denying this. But Paul says what he says: the Law indeed inflames sinful passion. And it is beyond clear that Paul has been set free from the law:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death

Posters will dance and dance and dance away from the strange truth: the Law of Moses inflames sin and Paul has been delivered from it.
 
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expos4ever

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The Sabbath is no longer in effect under the New Covenant. So I am by no means a Sabbatarian. But to imply that Jesus was against the Old Law (Before the cross) is to mean Jesus was against God the Father (Which is simply not the case).
There is a problem with this reasoning: it overlooks the possibility that both the Son and the Father know that the time of application of the Law of Moses has come to an end.
 
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expos4ever

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Jesus could not have broken the Law otherwise He could not be our spotless Lamb so as to die on the cross for our sins.
I understand the appeal of this thinking but, again, as God incarnate, Jesus has the authority to declare that, in God's grand redemption narrative, the time of the Law of Moses has come to an end. And the perfect way to announce this to the world is to "break" the Law.

Remember: In Mark 7, Jesus clearly defies the kosher food law.
 
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expos4ever

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You did not derive this by your own study of God's Word and by asking God to show you the truth of His Word.
Please - no sermonizing. You, of course, have no knowledge of how this poster has arrived at their position. They may disagree with you, but that hardly means you are justified to make a statement like this.
 
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John Helpher

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Please - no sermonizing. You, of course, have no knowledge of how this poster has arrived at their position. They may disagree with you, but that hardly means you are justified to make a statement like this.

Thanks, expos. Sometimes it's like a warzone in here!
 
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John Helpher

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So much theological study does not always produce what is most important?

I dunno. I guess we all get proud sometimes. It can be a fine line between confidence and arrogance.
 
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Ken Rank

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Priests do not obey Sabbath law.
There are two ENTIRELY different priesthoods, David. The Levitical does work on the Sabbath but Yeshua is not a Levite. He is a priest of another order, and he did not break any Sabbath commands found in the bible. Instead of any back and forth or risking anyone getting offended... just show me the TORAH (God's law) commandment he broke and then I will concede your point. :)
 
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Ken Rank

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John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Looks like a new commandment to me.

Even Jesus called it a new commandment!You may need to read the text.

Two things.

1. Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

>>Is the idea of loving your neighbor new to the NT? No... he was repeating an existing commandment. Which leads to...

2. The word for "new" is kainos which means "new in regards to freshness, renewed." The word "neos" is "new in regards to AGE, i.e. brand new. But kainos is more like renewed... made fresh.

Thus, messiah took a commandment that already existed and revealed the depth behind it... made it fresh.

Just because an English translation says "new" doesn't mean it is brand new, David.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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You are misrepresenting me. I never said we do not need the Bible, I said we do not need the Law of Moses to guide us.
You said, "Does a Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit need a written code to tell them that?" The NT is also written... and contains more commandments than the OT does by ALMOST double. So... do you not need the NT either?
 
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There is a problem with this reasoning: it overlooks the possibility that both the Son and the Father know that the time of application of the Law of Moses has come to an end.

This is a cryptic response. What do you mean? Please clarify.
 
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Ken Rank

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You claim there are no new commandments? Well, Jesus certainly does modify elements of the Law:

You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
The idea of hating your brother being = to murder, or lusting in your heart being = to adultery are not new commandments. What he has done is revealed the spirit (depth) behind the letter. The letter says, don't commit adultery, but behind that there is depth the mere words don't fully address. It is all and always based on the heart condition.


Now: You say
Paul quotes the OT 37% of the time he writes in the NT, that is a fact! The OT, the Torah in particular, gives us God's will, His desire, His differentiation between sin and righteousness... by the letter.

...but Paul says:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
So, we are released from obeying God? From do not steal? From no murder? What we are released from is the guilty verdict we incurred being sinful. The verdict of death was nailed to the cross, not "love the Lord thy God and Him only"
 
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expos4ever

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You said, "Does a Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit need a written code to tell them that?" The NT is also written... and contains more commandments than the OT does by ALMOST double. So... do you not need the NT either?
What? Why are you continuing to misrepresent? I never posted anything that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that I object to any of the NT commandments.
 
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John Helpher

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So, we are released from obeying God? From do not steal? From no murder?

No, we're asked to use critical thinking. Remember Peter's experience on the rooftop in Acts 10? God asked him to go against the Mosaic law (by eating "unclean" animals). Peter tells God "no", even rebuking Him by essentially saying, "No, God, I don't want to break the law".

That's basically what you're doing now; Jesus wants us to graduate into a deeper understanding of what it means to be spiritual adults developing integrity and wisdom, and you're still stuck in the old testament pointing to a list of rules to do all the thinking for you.
 
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expos4ever

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This is a cryptic response. What do you mean? Please clarify.
I am saying that if both the Father and the Son agree that the time has come to end the Law of Moses, then this could explain why Jesus "breaks" the Law - in so doing, He is symbolically declaring the end of the Law of Moses.
 
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Please - no sermonizing. You, of course, have no knowledge of how this poster has arrived at their position. They may disagree with you, but that hardly means you are justified to make a statement like this.

I am free to speak freely as I wish. It's a free country;
And I will speak sermons, as well.
Why? Jesus spoke the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7), and we are to follow Jesus' example (1 Peter 2:21) (1 John 2:6).

As for how this poster arrived at their position:

Well, I know for a fact that no believer who believes the Law is bad in some way, and that we cannot obey God's laws (and thus all that is necessary for salvation is believing in Jesus alone) has not come to this knowledge on their own study with God and His Word. This is the standard belief held by popular Christianity. I know. I had to break away from the popular view of Christianity to truly accept what God's Word was plainly saying. Proof?

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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expos4ever

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So, we are released from obeying God? From do not steal? From no murder? What we are released from is the guilty verdict we incurred being sinful. The verdict of death was nailed to the cross, not "love the Lord thy God and Him only"
You need to take this up with Paul, these are his words, not mine:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

Just because the written code has been done away does not mean that is ok to steal or murder. Do you need a written code to tell you not to kick puppies? In any event, we are told that the indwelling Spirit replaces the Law. And the Spirit will tell us you cannot murder or steal. Do you think the only role of the Spirit is to give you warm fuzzies?
 
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