Every jot and tittle

[YouAreAwesome]

The 2nd death was attached by Adam.

Wait, but earlier you said...

death is the curse of the law.

Was the 2nd death from Adam or the law?

 

[Ken Rank]

This is easy to do. Surely I don't need to tell you that the Law of Moses declares many foods to be unclean. Jesus says this:

Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him

Granted, Jesus is (here anyway) not breaking the Law Himself, but He is essentially declaring that is now outdated.

There are other ways to look at these verses. I was trying to tell this to @John Helpher but he insists on going on and on. Guys... I can share other ways to view these verses or not. But I am not going to keep going round and round on this... I just don't have the time, sorry.

 

[klutedavid]

Thayer, Liddle-Scott and Strong's are my 3 go to sources. Strong's says, "Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new." So Kainos is new in regards to freshness whereas Nehos is new in regards to AGE. A 1968 Mustang that you buy and restore and make look new in kainos, a brand new on the showroom Mustang is Nehos.

Now, I also take Greek words back to the LXX and from there, see what Hebrew word is used in the Hebrew manuscripts in the same place. An easy example of which is found in Hebrews 8 which quotes Jer. 31. There, where we find "I will make a kainos covenant" we see the word chadashah in Hebrew. Chadashah is the verb chadash (H2318) (to renew) being used as an adjective (hence the form change H2319) to describe the covenant. Hence, "I will cut a renewed covenant." Remember David, God called the covenant at Sinai everlasting (Psalam 105:8-10) so it is, whether that agrees with our theology or not. So it makes sense that it is renewed BUT.... there is new to it. What was on stone is being moved the heart (Ezk. 11:19) and that is new. But the covenant is the same everlasting covenant that started with a promise to restore things back when Adam sinned. There is more to this so I wouldn't just dismiss it. I can share some additional things if you are interested?

For the second time.

Strong's G2537 not G3501

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Greek: kainos

translation: new
a as respects form; recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
b as respects substance; of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon

If the Koine Greek says kainos (G2537), 'new', then we read it as 'new' in English. We do not interpret that Greek word and turn it into another word 'renew'.

Your applying an interpretation to the scripture and altering the words themselves.

I don't believe you cited G3501.

 

[not under law]

How about this from Romans 7:

Therefore did that (***i.e. the Law in context) which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful

I suspect you will argue that the Law really just exposes sin, but does not empower it (as I am claiming). Well, what about this, then, also from Romans 7:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

People routinely refuse to take Paul at his word - he is clearly describing sin as an agent of some sort that is strengthened and empowered by the Law working on his sinful flesh.

It might suit certain pre-suppositions to insist that the Law merely reveals sin; however, taking Paul at his word shows the truth is more surprising - the Law energizes the power of sin.

You could sum up Pauls main message concerning this in one verse:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14
The law does indeed energise sin as you say, if you live under it.

 

[not under law]

You are completely ignoring the details of my argument. .

People who do not understand Paul's message concerning this, will, have to ignore the details of your argument

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Wait, but earlier you said...



Was the 2nd death from Adam or the law?

It was a commandment to Adam...do you not know that Genesis is part of Torah?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

People who do not understand Paul's message concerning this, will, have to ignore the details of your argument

Well no, ignoring your argument is because people do understand Paul correctly

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It was a commandment to Adam...do you not know that Genesis is part of Torah?

Then why did you say "death is the curse of the law" if the second death existed before the law was given to Moses?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then why did you say "death is the curse of the law" if the second death existed before the law was given to Moses?

Did you not read what I said? What IS Torah? Because you don't seem to know, you ask that question.

 

[not under law]

Well no, ignoring your argument is because people do understand Paul correctly

Then why is sin the power of the law in your view. If you understand Paul correctly and I do not, are you not obligated to share your insight with those less knowledgable than yourself?

 

[expos4ever]

There are other ways to look at these verses. I was trying to tell this to @John Helpher but he insists on going on and on. Guys... I can share other ways to view these verses or not. But I am not going to keep going round and round on this... I just don't have the time, sorry.

I just don't see how can one read this:

Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him

....and not conclude that Jesus is overturning the kosher purity laws. So what if the Pharisees added things to the law of Moses? Jesus is making a general statement here - whatever goes into the man does not defile him. Is food not a "whatever"?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then why is sin the power of the law in your view. If you understand Paul correctly and I do not, are you not obligated to share your insight with those less knowledgable than yourself?

The entire section in context is, as I have said, Paul wrestling with the willingness of the spirit to not sin (the transgression of the law) but his flesh being weak.

 

[not under law]

The entire section in context is, as I have said, Paul wrestling with the willingness of the spirit to not sin (the transgression of the law) but his flesh being weak.

Well that doesn't answer the question asked, but no problem, we are all entitled to respond or not respond to questions as we so choose
God bless

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well that doesn't answer the question asked, but no problem, we are all entitled to respond or not respond to questions as we so choose
God bless

Actually it does...

 

[not under law]

Actually it does...

Lets try another way:
Why will sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace? Rom6:14

 

[expos4ever]

Actually it does...

No it does not. You need to explain the clear, albeit unsettling fact that Paul, in many ways, asserts that sin is empowered by Law, not merely revealed by Law. To wit:

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Lets try another way:
Why will sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace? Rom6:14

Because when you sin (transgressing the law), the wage is death and without grace you remain guilty...

 

[not under law]

Because when you sin (transgressing the law), the wage is death and without grace you remain guilty...

That does not come anywhere close to answering the question asked

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No it does not. You need to explain the clear, albeit unsettling fact that Paul, in many ways, asserts that sin is empowered by Law, not merely revealed by Law. To wit:

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Yes it does...you just can't or won't accept the truth...because it does not hug your belief...

Because when you sin (transgressing the law), the wage is death and without grace (Yeshua) you remain guilty...

He says it right there in the scripture you quoted. You break the law you pay the consequence...death. The law is good and holy and righteous...but...

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That does not come anywhere close to answering the question asked

Actually it does. That is because you don't, cant or won't understand...