Every jot and tittle

[not under law]

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 19&20
Years later:

As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’ Acts21:25
Many believe, three of the laws Gentiles were asked to follow at the council of Jerusalem were to appease Pharisees-or legalists who had become converted, a kind of compromise

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 19&20
Years later:

As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.’ Acts21:25
Many believe, three of the laws Gentiles were asked to follow at the council of Jerusalem were to appease Pharisees-or legalists who had become converted, a kind of compromise

You really don't know much about this do you. Look up Ger Toshav and Ger Tzaddik...Noahide laws vs. full Torah observance. They were writing telling the Ger toshav what laws they should observe until they spent enough time on the Sabbaths learning Torah to become designated Ger Tzaddik.

 

[not under law]

One thing you can always rely on, on websites such as these. Its no problem, if needed, to overturn anything that is written

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It is REALLY simple yet most of you can't or don't want to understand it. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death...death is the curse of the law. Yeshua nailed the curse to the cross. Without Him we would be dead in our sins. Now we have forgiveness/grace for our sins! No more sacrifices!

Okay so you are saying this:

1. God made a covenant with Israel.
2. If the covenant was broken the people were cursed with death.
3. Thousands of years later God took the curse of death away.

Why did God take the curse of death away?

 

[expos4ever]

It is REALLY simple yet most of you can't or don't want to understand it. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death...death is the curse of the law. Yeshua nailed the curse to the cross. Without Him we would be dead in our sins. Now we have forgiveness/grace for our sins! No more sacrifices!

First, I doubt you will be able to make the case Biblically that sin must, in all places and all times, reckoned against the Law of Moses to the exclusion of anything else. A literal translation of 1 John 3:4 says that sins is "lawlessness", with no specificity to the Law of Moses (unlike translations that read something like 'sin is transgression of the Law').

Second, I think this is the picture we get from Paul about the Law (this view is that of scholar NT Wright):

- The Law of Moses was given to Israel in order to effectively lure "sin", understood as a power or even a personal force, to take up residence in Israel. He arguably makes this case most strongly in Romans 5 and Romans 7.

- With sin thus localized in Israel, it is then focussed onto the one faithful Israelite - Jesus;

- Sin has essentially been "tricked" or "lured" onto Jesus, enabling God to condemn sin, not Jesus (see Romans 8), on the cross.

- The Law has completed its mission as "flypaper for sin" and can now be retired.

 

[John Helpher]

In John 8, a woman caught in adultery is brought to Jesus. And the Law required an adulterer to be put to death. What does Jesus do? He essentially overrules that provision of the Law and sends her on her way.

Seems pretty clear that Jesus is "disobeying" the Law.

I interpret the quotes around the word disobeying (in the above sentence) to mean that you don't think he was really disobeying, but only that he had the appearance of disobeying. I'd say that's both true and not true at the same time.

I believe Jesus was the only one there who was genuinely interested in righteousness. Technically, he did contravene the law by not stoning the woman (since the text says she was caught in the very act), but that's only because he could see there was a deeper problem; the motivation for keeping the law was wrong. The motivation for why we do what we do is more important than the technical obedience of the law itself.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Okay so you are saying this:

1. God made a covenant with Israel.
2. If the covenant was broken the people were cursed with death.
3. Thousands of years later God took the curse of death away.

Why did God take the curse of death away?

No I said what I said...there is a physical death and a spiritual death (the 2nd death)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

First, I doubt you will be able to make the case Biblically that sin must, in all places and all times, reckoned against the Law of Moses to the exclusion of anything else. A literal translation of 1 John 3:4 says that sins is "lawlessness", with no specificity to the Law of Moses (unlike translations that read something like 'sin is transgression of the Law').

Second, I think this is the picture we get from Paul about the Law (this view is that of scholar NT Wright):

- The Law of Moses was given to Israel in order to effectively lure "sin", understood as a power or even a personal force, to take up residence in Israel. He arguably makes this case most strongly in Romans 5 and Romans 7.

- With sin thus localized in Israel, it is then focussed onto the one faithful Israelite - Jesus;

- Sin has essentially been "tricked" or "lured" onto Jesus, enabling God to condemn sin, not Jesus (see Romans 8), on the cross.

- The Law has completed its mission as "flypaper for sin" and can now be retired.

I see, God was just playing a trick? He told Adam not to eat...a commandment...and what happened?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

No I said what I said...there is a physical death and a spiritual death (the 2nd death)

Okay I'll try and be more clear, why did God first attach the curse of the 2nd death to the law, and then take the curse of the 2nd death away in Jesus?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Agree, as you would expect if you have been reading my posts.

Well, it is a full time job to read everyone's posts. I usually read a post when somebody replies to me. I do sometimes read through the thread a little. Generally, if it is a person who is rattling on about the Sabbath, or about how they can sin and still be saved, I do not pay attention to such lengthy posts because they are just speaking gibberish nonsense. Granted, I am not saying your posts did either of these two things, but I am just letting you know where I am coming from.

I am curious - have you encountered any such people in this particular thread?

In my experience in talking with Christians both online and in person over the past 10 years: The predominant view in Christianity is turning God's grace into a license for immorality on some level.

Just look at the responses in this thread here. Also posts like these here are not uncommon here on the forums.

Most believers today erroneously think they are solely saved by believing in Christ's sacrifice alone and not in anything that they do whatsoever. I hold to this view because that is what the majority of believers have told me over the many years. Sure, most Christians will say that a true Christian will not murder, rape, or abuse children, but when push comes to shove, they will defend the idea that they can willfully commit other kinds of sins (that do not seem as bad) like lying, lusting, and hating, etc. and they can die in these kinds of sins (without confessing them to Jesus) and they are still saved. Meaning: Most Christians I have talked will say that if a believer was lusting after a woman in their mind and they then get hit by a bus and die before getting a chance to confess of such a sin, they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus Christ.

Many Christians will twist 1 John 1:8, Romans 7:14-24, Romans 3:23 that a Christian will always struggle with sin and or it is inevitable that they will commit grievous sin (like lying, hating, cursing, or lusting, etc.). Seeing that they do not think they can fully obey God always, they need a safety net to sin and this idea is Sola Fide or Faith Alone (i.e. Belief Alone-ism). Sola Fide is a Protestant doctrine or view that comes from Martin Luther. Martin Luther said this, I quote:

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ~ Martin Luther.​

Source:
'Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project'

But this is not the view of the Bible. After we are saved by God's grace, we need to enter the Sanctification Process by God and live holy. For Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Titus 1:16 says that certain individuals were able to deny God by a lack of works. Jesus told certain believers to depart from Him because He did not know them because they worked iniquity in Matthew 7:23 (Also see 1 John 2:3-4, and also see Matthew 7:26-27). When I quote the words of Jesus to most Christians these days, they think Jesus was teaching us righteous instructions as a way of showing how we cannot keep God's laws and not as a way so as to obey Him. Even your recent post (Post #179) you said this:

"Third, Jesus wins the argument by the zinger "whoever is without sin cast the first stone". Yet are we not all sinners? Surely, Jesus is stating some sort of universal truth here." ~ Expos4ever​

I believe that every man (Besides Jesus) has sinned, but that does not mean they have to remain that way after they have come to know the Lord. I believe that Christians can be considered righteous by God if they:

(a) Seek forgiveness with Jesus Christ, and believe that He died for their sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on their behalf for salvation, (and):
(b) Overcome grievous sin in this life (Note: Grievous sin is any sin in the Bible that is specifically condemned in the New Testament with warnings of hellfire, spiritual death, or condemnation, etc.).

 

[expos4ever]

I interpret the quotes around the word disobeying (in the above sentence) to mean that you don't think he was really disobeying, but only that he had the appearance of disobeying. I'd say that's both true and not true at the same time.

I believe Jesus was the only one there who was genuinely interested in righteousness. Technically, he did contravene the law by not stoning the woman (since the text says she was caught in the very act), but that's only because he could see there was a deeper problem; the motivation for keeping the law was wrong. The motivation for why we do what we do is more important than the technical obedience of the law itself.

I think the two of us, while in general agreement, are looking at this entire issue from somewhat differing perspectives. You appear to focus on issues of human motivation, the "spirit" of the law rather than that letter, etc. I can tell you that I look at this from a redemption narrative perspective - I believe scripture presents not, primarily at least, a set of timeless truths but rather an unfolding story. And from my perspective, with the Incarnation, the story has reached the point where Israel has played its role and so the Law of Moses - the thing that distinguished the Jew from their neighbours - can be retired.

So to loop back: I do think that Jesus is actually breaking the Law to send a message - not that it is acceptable to break the law, but rather that the time of the Law has come to an end. Now to be fair to your take, I also think you are right in the sense that He was getting at the "spirit" of the Law of Moses, as distinguished from its letter.

 

[expos4ever]

I see, God was just playing a trick?

In a sense, yes: Paul argues that God used the Law of Moses as a kind of "bait" to trick sin into being concentrated in Israel, then focused onto Jesus, and then defeated on the cross.

 

[expos4ever]

In my experience in talking with Christians both online and in person over the past 10 years: The predominant view in Christianity is turning God's grace into a license for immorality on some level......

I read your whole post and I completely agree with you on this particular matter. By the way, with respect to Romans 7: I, like you, am aware that people will use this text as if it applies to them, and attempt to justify their losing battle with sin this way. Well, I am convinced that while Romans 7 is critical to Paul's theology, the "I" whole struggles with sin in that chapter is the Jewish Paul before conversion. So, if this is correct, it is bad theology to think Romans 7 characterizes the struggles of the Christian.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Okay I'll try and be more clear, why did God first attach the curse of the 2nd death to the law, and then take the curse of the 2nd death away in Jesus?

The 2nd death was attached by Adam. He failed but Yeshua (the 2nd Adam) didn't...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

In a sense, yes: Paul argues that God used the Law of Moses as a kind of "bait" to trick sin into being concentrated in Israel, then focused onto Jesus, and then defeated on the cross.

I do not believe that but whatever floats your boat I guess

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I interpret the quotes around the word disobeying (in the above sentence) to mean that you don't think he was really disobeying, but only that he had the appearance of disobeying. I'd say that's both true and not true at the same time.

I believe Jesus was the only one there who was genuinely interested in righteousness. Technically, he did contravene the law by not stoning the woman (since the text says she was caught in the very act), but that's only because he could see there was a deeper problem; the motivation for keeping the law was wrong. The motivation for why we do what we do is more important than the technical obedience of the law itself.

No, He forgave her sin which only God can do...

 

[not under law]

In a sense, yes: Paul argues that God used the Law of Moses as a kind of "bait" to trick sin into being concentrated in Israel, then focused onto Jesus, and then defeated on the cross.

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

 

[expos4ever]

I do not believe that but whatever floats your boat I guess

How about this from Romans 7:

Therefore did that (***i.e. the Law in context) which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful

I suspect you will argue that the Law really just exposes sin, but does not empower it (as I am claiming). Well, what about this, then, also from Romans 7:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

People routinely refuse to take Paul at his word - he is clearly describing sin as an agent of some sort that is strengthened and empowered by the Law working on his sinful flesh.

It might suit certain pre-suppositions to insist that the Law merely reveals sin; however, taking Paul at his word shows the truth is more surprising - the Law energizes the power of sin.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

How about this from Romans 7:

Again, sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death...death is the curse of the law. Yeshua nailed the curse to the cross. Without Him we would be dead in our sins. Now we have forgiveness/grace for our sins! No more sacrifices!

Romans 7 is a Pauline expose on "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"...
Shalom

 

[expos4ever]

Again, sin is the transgression of the law.

Are you referring to 1 John 3:4? That text, translated literally says sin is lawlessness, not transgression of the Law of Moses.

The wages of sin is death...death is the curse of the law. Yeshua nailed the curse to the cross. Without Him we would be dead in our sins. Now we have forgiveness/grace for our sins! No more sacrifices!

Romans 7 is a Pauline expose on "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"...
Shalom

You are completely ignoring the details of my argument. And Romans 7 is Paul's exposition of the state of the Jew under the Law of Moses - it does not apply to the Christian (Jewish or otherwise).