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Ever the Expert

Oncedeceived

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Ondoher said:
Intelligence is expained by mutation and natural selection.

I disagree and have stated that in another post.




Let's break it down.
and the periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retained the same form.


I understand that this could imply that PE is being discussed but reading what Darwin has said concerning anything but gradualism I find it still unlikely that this is what he is talking about here.





This says that species are relatively static for long periods of time, and then undergo geologically rapid periods of change. Just like PE.


He says short in comparison. That could mean anything.

It is the dominant and widely ranging species which vary most frequently and vary most, and varieties are often at first local--both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links in any one formation less likely.
This says that change will usually be a local event, and then that change will radiate out to the rest of the population, making the change appear to be sudden in the geological record.

How so?


So, how is this dramatically unlike PE and how does it support strict gradualism?

I didn't say dramatically unlike PE, I said that Darwin believed in slow gradual change which the greater volume of his work exemplifies.
 
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Jet Black

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Oncedeceived said:
I didn't say dramatically unlike PE, I said that Darwin believed in slow gradual change which the greater volume of his work exemplifies.
he believed in incremental changes. The spped of those changes he would no doubt admit, varies on the conditions and the organisms involved. Part of his limitation I think in being able to determine rates of evolution, is his lack of the knowledge of what the inheritance mechanism was and how it worked.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Jet Black said:
he believed in incremental changes. The spped of those changes he would no doubt admit, varies on the conditions and the organisms involved. Part of his limitation I think in being able to determine rates of evolution, is his lack of the knowledge of what the inheritance mechanism was and how it worked.

Probably he would now, but that is not what is being claimed here. His limitation of course was due to not having the information that we have now but again we are only looking at what he meant at the time without the knowledge we hold today.
 
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Jet Black

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Oncedeceived said:
Probably he would now, but that is not what is being claimed here. His limitation of course was due to not having the information that we have now but again we are only looking at what he meant at the time without the knowledge we hold today.
ok, but I don't see how either of the darwin quotes suggest that he was a strict gradualist.
 
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Ondoher

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Oncedeceived said:
I disagree and have stated that in another post.
Intelligence is derrived from the brain. The instructions to build a brain is in DNA. Changes to DNA that improve intelligence will selected for in certain environments. The trend in primates is towards increased intelligence. Protohumans occupied a tool making niche where increased intelligence would have been beneficial.

Oncedeceived said:
I understand that this could imply that PE is being discussed but reading what Darwin has said concerning anything but gradualism I find it still unlikely that this is what he is talking about here.
Obviously, PE didn't even exist when Darwin wrote this, but the ideas being expressed are very much like PE. Darwin wrote about gradualism, as this was the primary mechanism of change, however, here he is acknowledging that stasis is also very common, and likely more common than change.

Oncedeceived said:
He says short in comparison. That could mean anything.
It means that stasis was more common than change.

Oncedeceived said:
I'm just paraphrasing what he is saying. He is explaining the difficulties in the fossil record. One is that changes are "at first local". When they later radiate out, it makes their appearence in the fossil record seem very sudden, unless you happen upon the location where the change occurred. This is classic PE.

Oncedeceived said:
I didn't say dramatically unlike PE, I said that Darwin believed in slow gradual change which the greater volume of his work exemplifies.
Sure, slow change while things were actually undergoing change. Here he is specifically showing that when there are no pressures to do otherwise, species will remain static.

My point was, of course, there is no such thing as a strict gradualist. Some just emphasize tempo more than others.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Ondoher said:
Intelligence is derrived from the brain. The instructions to build a brain is in DNA. Changes to DNA that improve intelligence will selected for in certain environments. The trend in primates is towards increased intelligence. Protohumans occupied a tool making niche where increased intelligence would have been beneficial.



You are making some assumption here that are not proven. First that improved intelligence was selected for, although this may make sense it is not in evidence. Tools remained virtually the same for millions of years all the while intelligence was suppose to be increasing.

The second is in assuming that the trend in primates is towards increased intelligence. Are chimps or apes any more intelligent now than they were before? It hasn't been shown to be the case.

You also cite that DNA improves intelligence in certain environments but again this is not proven because when the "boom" in intelligence was evident it was across the environmental scope.


Obviously, PE didn't even exist when Darwin wrote this, but the ideas being expressed are very much like PE. Darwin wrote about gradualism, as this was the primary mechanism of change, however, here he is acknowledging that stasis is also very common, and likely more common than change.

Well you could very well be right. I just find it contrary to how I understood what he was saying.

It means that stasis was more common than change.

I can see that.
I'm just paraphrasing what he is saying. He is explaining the difficulties in the fossil record. One is that changes are "at first local". When they later radiate out, it makes their appearence in the fossil record seem very sudden, unless you happen upon the location where the change occurred. This is classic PE.

But we never see the location where the change occurred in most cases. But I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have a problem with it.
Sure, slow change while things were actually undergoing change. Here he is specifically showing that when there are no pressures to do otherwise, species will remain static.

But in some cases you will admit that the changes occur and there are no pressures at all that can be shown. But again, I don't think that I disagree with what you are saying.



My point was, of course, there is no such thing as a strict gradualist. Some just emphasize tempo more than others.

Point accepted.
 
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michabo

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Oncedeceived said:
That is part of the problem, it is like looking at a puzzle partly finished and claiming it is a duck and finding out that it is a polar bear. Sometimes it is the pieces missing that hold the critical information.
The last discovery actually pushed back human ancestors much further than previously expected, so our views are changing. And we do need more pieces to assemble a complete view. But it the duck/polar bear is just incorrect. Perhaps chimpanzee vs bonobo is more accurate.
The size of the brain is really becoming more and more a problem as Science discovers more about the brain. Size is being thought less important in relation to intelligence.
Yes, but it fossilizes better than other aspects :)

Note I also mentioned artifacts, which are also very important.
Tools stayed the same and there is no evidence that the size change was making us more intelligent until at least 100 million years after the fact.
Exactly - you're answering your own question, phrasing it as an objection. The evidence you are using to make this objection are exactly what are being considered when studying the evolution of intelligence. A single indicator is not sufficient.
The development of our brains and our intelligence does not fit neatly into the evolutionary model and most certainly holds gaps as I stated earlier.
Heh, nope. You are actually defending evolution while trying to attack it. Intellingence may be a question not answered satisfactorily, but then we don't understand intellingence in the living, so it is much harder to understand it from only fossils.
Please don't bother going into the fossils are typically very rare speech. This is also a gap excuse.
No, it is an explaination. There is no reason to offer excuses. As I have said (but you didn't address), there are many reasons why fossils are rare. If you have any reason to think otherwise, please bring it forward and don't just make a hand-waving allusion.
It doesn't bother me, just as there are gaps in the creation theories as well. The problem is when you as an evolutionist allow gaps for your side but won't allow the same on mine. :)
No. If you can give me any reason to think that the gaps are expected and acceptable, then I'm okay, but this has never been done. And I suspect that you are trying to sweep outright falsifications under the rug and call them "gaps". That's never acceptible.
 
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Jet Black

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Oncedeceived said:
Please don't bother going into the fossils are typically very rare speech. This is also a gap excuse. There are gaps but it doesn't matter speal. It doesn't bother me, just as there are gaps in the creation theories as well. The problem is when you as an evolutionist allow gaps for your side but won't allow the same on mine. :)
The gaps are not an excuse. They are an explanation, since we know that fossilisation is rare, then we would expect not to find a huge emount of fossils of certain particular types. However this problem can often be dealt with by looking at the genome in order to determine whether we are correct or not in linking the fossils together or not. The fossils also come in an order, meaning that fossils of a certain type were deposited before others, and then dating techniques can be used. so even from the limited fossils that we do have, we can still gain far more that information ablut homology.
 
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Oncedeceived

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michabo said:
The last discovery actually pushed back human ancestors much further than previously expected, so our views are changing. And we do need more pieces to assemble a complete view. But it the duck/polar bear is just incorrect. Perhaps chimpanzee vs bonobo is more accurate.

Duck/polar bear is not incorrect. You have no way of knowing how much you don't know and it could make the difference to the degree of thinking something is a duck but it in reality is a polar bear.



Exactly - you're answering your own question, phrasing it as an objection. The evidence you are using to make this objection are exactly what are being considered when studying the evolution of intelligence. A single indicator is not sufficient.

What question am I answering? So?

Heh, nope. You are actually defending evolution while trying to attack it. Intellingence may be a question not answered satisfactorily, but then we don't understand intellingence in the living, so it is much harder to understand it from only fossils.

Nope, you are loosing focus on what is being discussed here. First of all I am not "attacking" evolution. My point was that there are gaps in the model and was giving examples of that. You are so positioned to "defend" evolution that you are not able to see past that.

No, it is an explaination. There is no reason to offer excuses. As I have said (but you didn't address), there are many reasons why fossils are rare. If you have any reason to think otherwise, please bring it forward and don't just make a hand-waving allusion.

LOL.....Hand-waving allusion? That takes all. I didn't address it because it was not important to my point or yours for that matter. I totally understand the requirements for fossil formation and don't feel that the lack of it proves that there is nothing to find but it does create gaps which is my point.

No. If you can give me any reason to think that the gaps are expected and acceptable, then I'm okay, but this has never been done. And I suspect that you are trying to sweep outright falsifications under the rug and call them "gaps". That's never acceptible.

So on the one hand you tell me that you'll be okay if I give suffiecient reason in your opinion but on the other you already have a preconceived opinion that I am going to lie. Think about that.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Aron-Ra said:
The Bible is still very clearly dead wrong about damned-near everything back to front, particularly in Genesis,
Oncedeceived said:
That is your opinion Aron-Ra. Genesis is not wrong about everything and is a very good fit for what we have discovered in Science which the two of us have discussed.
You and I have never discussed anything which could be said to fit with the Bible's account. Forgetting evolution for a moment, the Bible was still wrong about there being a world-wide flood, or a single universal language prior to the 18th Century BCE, and about the waters above where the giant crystal firmament really isn't. These aren't just my opinion. Each is a objectively discernable certainty.

The majority of both the Old and New Testements were borrowed from the elder gods of neighboring religions.
I have shown over and over that the borrowing came from the neighboring religions from Judaism. Scholars that are very well versed in early religion have stated as such.
But far more scholars who are much better educated on the subject insist otherwise. You haven't shown anything. All you've done is assert it without backing or citation. I on the other hand have shown why your suggestion is impossible.


Jesus was heralded as the creator of all life on Earth and was associated with a holy trinity. But Mithras and Krsna were also, thousands of years earlier. Mithras was first worshipped in Persia 1,400 years before Jesus, and Krsna is supposed to have lived in India 3,000 years before Jesus.
Jesus' birth was heralded by a celestial event. Krsna's, Osiris', and Buddha's was too.

Gilgamesh, Hercules, Quetzalcoatle, Buddha, Dionysius, and Mithras were all said to be the sons of a god and a mortal human girl just like Jesus was. In fact, gods and mortal women were said to breed all the time. There are dozens of these kids throughout mythology, and Quetzacoatle was the only one among them worshipped after Jesus' time.

Mithras, Bacchus (Dionysius) Quetzalcoatle, Horus, Quirrnus, Indra, Zoroaster, Buddha, and even Plato and Alexander the Great were all said to have been conceived without sexual intercourse, usually by virgins, according to documents that (with only one exception), all predate Jesus by 100 to 600 years.

Osiris the son was an incarnation of the father. In the same sense, Krsna was an avatar, just as many Christians believe Jesus was also.

Buddha, Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysius were all born during Winter Solstace, ie late December, or December 25th specifically. Almost all the gods ever conceived were born on Christmas day, if their birthdate was known at all. It was Emporer Constantine who decided that Jesus would have been born on the same day as the elder gods.

Buddha was visited by three wise men in infancy, who recognized his divinity. At that time, (around 560 years before Jesus) they presented him with gifts of "costly jewels and precious substances".

Centuries before Jesus was ever born, Moses, Dionysius, Buddha, Krsna, and Quirinus' lives were being threatened in childhood by the resident ruler in each of their lands; one who feared an eventual overthrow at their hands. Dionysius was saved from this in exactly the same manner as Moses was; by being set adrift in a river.

Quetzalcoatle, Zoroaster, and Buddha were each tempted by their resident forms of Satan. Mara [Satan] promised Buddha all the kingdoms of the world. Buddha refused in exactly the same manner as Jesus did. Buddha also fasted for "a long period".

Mithras, Zoroaster, and Dionysius cured the sick.
Dionysius cured lepers specifically.
Zoraoster and Osiris cast out demons.
Zoroaster, Krsna, and Mithras made the blind see.
Osiris and Mithras raised the dead.
Mithras made the lame walk.
Buddha fed vast multitudes on only a meager amount of food
Dionysius (Bacchus) turned water into wine, while at a wedding no less!
Osiris, Buddha, and Krsna walked on water. Indra also walked on the air.
Buddha was transfigured on the mount near the end of his terrestrial existence.
Mithras and Indra remained celibate throughout their lives.
Mithras had a last supper of wine and bread in the company of twelve desciples.
Osiris had a last supper that symbolized his eventual corpse.

Most of these gods either died or were either crucified on or about Easter, ie the Vernal Equinox. Mithras, Dionysius, and Indra were depicted in pre-Christian era artifacts as crucified on a cross exactly as Jesus appears on a crucifix.

orpheus_crux.jpg


Prometheus was crucified on a rock to atone for the sin of man's discovering "forbidden knowledge". This is according to a play written by Aeschylus in 430 BCE. Eight years earlier than that, another Greek playwright told of Alcestis being crucified in order to secure a man's salvation. She died on the cross, but was resurrected after three days in the land of the dead.

Mithras was rendered with the same halo that later artists would adorn Jesus with.
The dogma of Attis (Atys) and of Mithras mention sacrificial and baptismal blood specifically. Osiris' followers were cleansed of their sins in a baptismal of blood and were "born again."

The whole world was envoloped in darkness when Budda, Quirinus, Crite, and Krsna died. For Prometheus' crucifixion, there was also great Earthquakes.

Mithras, Dionysius, Krsna, Indra, Adonis, Thulis, Osiris, Ba'al, Alcestis, and Attis were said to have been physically resurrected after their deaths. Dionysus even changed his name to Dionysus II and lived a second life. He died twice here on Earth before his immortal soul ascended to the afterworld of the gods. And this too is according to documentation that is (at the very least) 600 years older than Jesus.

Attis of Phrygia was called "the Good Sheppard," the "Most High God," the "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior."

Gautama Buddha was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

The Greek Dionysius was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

Hecules was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."

Osiris of Egypt was called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Zoroaster of Persia was called "The Word made flesh"

Apart from Quetzocoatle and Quirrinus, all of these other pre-Christian Christs were worshipped hundreds or thousands of years before Jesus. So there's no way they could have adapted their stories from his. Everything Jesus ever did, a handful of pagan gods had all done centuries earlier.

But wait! There's more! [to be continued...]
 
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Aron-Ra

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As you yourself said, the very earliest book of the Bible wasn't written until about 1500 BCE. But the 22,000 Cuneiform tablets in Ashurburnipal's library are each known to be several centuries older than that. And more importantly, they all were written by the same culture!

The Sumerian creation myth, Enuma Elish, says all life was borne in the belly of the sea, including each of the gods. The rest of the world on dry land was created by six generations of gods. The sixth divine generation created a man, Adamah, (the man of the red dirt). "Let us make man in our own image", they said. And it became man's job to complete creation so that the seventh generation of gods could rest. This same tale was also told in the Epic of Atrahasis. Except in that, they crafted 14 people, male and female, they created them by molding clay figurines out of the dust of the Earth. Then they killed one of their own as a sacrifice. One of the gods died for the good of mankind. After each of these figurines were soaked in his blood, the goddess, Mami breathed into them the breath of life.

Another passage in Enuma Elish concerned an immortal named Enki who trespassed on the sacred garden of Inanna, eating many of the fruits therein that were all forbidden to him. The goddess, Ninhursag witnessed his sin. She cursed him, and he fell. But Ninhursag freely forgave the fallen immortal and bore seven daughters to cure his wounds. One of them was called Ninti, the "daughter borne of the rib", for she was meant to close the wound to his side.

In the Epic of Gilgamesh, another work in Ashurburnipal's library, the goddess Inanna plants a special tree in her garden. Later, Gilgamesh while walking through the sacred grounds, discovered the dark maid, Lilith, whom Talmudic legend would one day call Adam's first wife. She had made her home in the forbidden tree, along with her companion, a serpent who could not be tamed. Gilgamesh, the god-king drew his blade, and drove Lilith and the serpent away from the forbidden tree, and out of the sacred garden forever.

Part of the epic of Atrahasis is repeated as part of the epic of Gilgamesh. But in that, Atrahasis' name is changed to Utnapishtim. This character was most commonly known as Ziusudra, but was also later called Xisuthros, and Sisuthros, and finally, Noah. Whatever his name really was, the ancient Sumerian Book of the Kings describes him as the son of Ubar-Tutu, king of Shuruppak, which dates the epic flood at sometime in the 29th Century BCE. In every account, mankind disturbed the gods in their rest, so the gods wrought a great flood to kill them all. But Ziusudra and his family were saved when he received a divine warning to tear down his house and build a great barge, one big enough for his entire menagerie and the best of all his livestock. The Bible departs from the original in that Ziusudra's flood came in as a rush of water with a dark cloud in the background. Be it a storm surge or volcanic tsunami, it broke the dykes and moved in over the land in a rage, destroying everything in the entire Tigris-Euphrates flood plain. In every version of this story, including the one eventually included in Genesis, most of the details were similar or identical, including the depth of the flood; 15 cubits, or 22 feet. This wasn't enough even to muddy the foothills of Ararat many hundreds of miles away. But it was enough to obscure every hilltop visible from Shuruppak. In the Gilgamesh version, only the treetops can be seen rising above the waves. So he releases a bird to find the land. As the waters recede the waterways are damned by hundreds of human bodies. On the seventh day, the barge comes to rest on an estuary at the mouth of the river, and a thankful Noah offers a sacrifice to the gods on a hill near its banks.

These ancient tablets was estimated to have been written at different times running from 1700 BCE to 2200 BCE, and were composed by Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Chaldeans, the latter being a Semitic people ancestral to the Jews. So it ascends beyond the realm of mere myth in that at least a few of these characters may have really existed. If so, then Gilgamesh king of Urok, was literally the first man described by name and deed in all of recorded history. And what is believed to be his tomb was recently discovered by archaeologists in Iraq. The Sumerian King List is the oldest historic document known to man. And it indicates that the story of Noah is loosely based on someone who actually lived as well. There is now some scientific support of this position too as archaeological surveys at the site of Shuruppak also confirm that the whole place was once deluged under approximately two dozen feet of water, roughly 5,000 years ago.

The dates are difficult to determine because all these legends were written before the invention of the number zero. The numeric system of Shuruppak wasn't based on ten but sixty. Consequently, the formula for calculating the exact figures is very difficult to work out. If read as written, the monarchy descended directly from heaven, and each of the earliest kings ruled for tens of thousands of years, a heck of a long lifetime by anyone's standards. However comparisons of mundane documents like the sales receipts of cattle indicate that in some cases, simply dividing by either ten or twelve will often provide a more accurate number. This is how someone in their early eighties could be said to be 969 years old. Still, an eighty year-old man living back then would be impressive, since people in most primitive societies seldom live to see their 50th or even 40th birthday.

So there are several significant parallels between many of the stories in the Bible and the work of the Mesopotamians from at least 1,000 years earlier. But the similarities don't stop there. One of the legends of the Pharaoh, Seneferu is that he had one of his mages part the red sea just to retrieve a bauble accidentally dropped by one of his lovely maidens. And the Chaldean hero, Hammurabi supposedly went up a mountain to receive the famous Law Code from the sun-god, Shamash. Both of these events were to have taken place at least 300 years before the time of Moses. So Moses' version can't possibly be the original, now can it? Hammurabi's is, and his original Law Code is now on display (in real life) at the London museum. But the lost ark of the covenant apparently exists only in movies.

Beelzebub, the "Lord of the Flies" and the "prince of devils" in the New Testament, was really Ba'al Zebul, "the high prince", and "lord of the home", and an apparently real king of the city of Ugarit around the time of Job, and just a couple centuries before Moses. Lucifer, son of the Dawn, in Isaiah 14:12 was really a Babylonian prince named Helel ben Shahar. He tried to overthrow his father, king Shahar, (the dawn) brother of Shalim, (the dusk) but his koo was defeated, and he was cast down. The story was transferred to astrology where Helel is played by the planet Venus, (the morning star, or "Day star") and his father is the moon. Shahar and Shalim both claimed to be the sons of El, as did Jesus eventually. And El (Elyon) is played by the rising sun, diminishing Venus and accepting only the moon by his side or in his absence. The serpent, as you know, was literally that, a snake, keeping company with the wrong woman in the wrong place.

Somehow, Lilith and the serpent traded identities for about 1,000 years, as all of the early Renaissance renderings of the Temptation of Eve depict the serpent of the garden as a woman, allegedly, Lilith, (Lilitu) according to rabbinical scholars. This tradition endured through many famous artists, and many great works including the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and the stone walls of the cathedral at Notre Dame. In King James' time, the people adopted a new serpent, and cast "the devil" in that role instead. But even Satan himself isn't who most people think it is. The Hebrew word is Shai'tan, which means "the opposer", specifically, one who opposes faith. The current Semitic concept of this character seems to be based on a Persian deity from 600 BCE. According to the Zend Avesta, rightous men, upon their deaths may be taken to the Kingdom of Justice and Truth under Ahura-Mazda, the principle god of Zoroastrianism. The alternative is to doom evil men to the Kingdom of the Lie, ruled by Ahriman, the lord of lies, also known as "the Opposer". And the list goes on and on with many more even more profound parallels between the character of Jesus and that of Prometheus, Dionysus, Alcestis, Mithras, Apollo, Hercules, Krsna, Osiris, Buddha, and Zarathustra, all of whom were worshiped centuries earlier.

So, Stilldeceived, how do you think all these parallels come to be? Your explanation seems to be that each of the pagan legends is somehow loosely based on the Bible, which is still somehow the original revealed truth, and that all the pagan stories are merely fables distorted (perhaps by demonic intent) to confuse the faith of those who still hold the Bible to be the only truly accurate document men have ever managed to write in the entire history of journalism. In this perspective, Noah's version of the flood stayed uncorrupted over thousands of years while each of the Mesopotamian variants were all confused almost immediately, even though they each match each other more than any of them do the account in Genesis.

But I have another explanation, and it concerns another story in the Bible that may have a element of truth to it. The Mesopotamian empires were the most advanced culture of their age. But as with all empires, there came an unfortunate end. Hamurabi and Nebuchadnezzar both worked to erect the Marduk Ziggurat, a mammoth tower who's ruins can still be seen from the site of the old hanging gardens of Babylon. But the tower of Babel(on) took generations to build, and the empires that financed it collapsed before it could be completed. Very quickly, the world's most advanced society were in many cases reduced to living as nomadic and unlearned cattle herders. The very people who had invented syllabic text were illiterate in just a few decadese, and kept their ancestral traditions alive orally for at least 50 generations until the old stories could be written down again by the Phoenicians and the Greeks. By that time, it became evident that the religions of all the neighboring cultures whom they encountered had some influence over the content of their tales. Only Ashurburnipal's library remained intact, locked away in a vault and buried for thousands of years. Then as we peer into the original works, we can see how much western theism has evolved from its polytheist roots. There is no way the Bible could be the original version. Because the details of all these others don't match up the way they should if that were true. And all of them were written by the very grandfathers of those who would eventually compose or compile the Biblical version.
The Bible is very much in tact from the early days which is exemplified in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are the absolute oldest of any of the Biblical records, I'll grant you that. But they contain little more than just the Book of Isaiah, and even that is only about 250 years older than Jesus himself. About half of the Bible is completely unknown as it has been lost forever ages ago. If you think its still intact, then crack open yours and look for the lost prophesy that Christ should be a Nazarene, or the prediction of Elias' restoration. What about the books of the Covenant and of the Wars of the Lord, the books of Jasher, Shemaiah or Jehu? Of Statutes, the Prophesy of Ahijah and Visions of Iddo, or the acts of Solomon, Nathan and Gad, or of Uzziah by Isaiah? Where are the sayings of the seers, the epistle of Jude or Paul's epistles to the Corinthians, Ephesians and Liodiceans? All these books are referenced elsewhere as being part of the whole, yet they're all missing now, omitted by men altering the supposedly infallible and inalterable word of God at their mere mortal whim.

Now when you arbitrarily remove a significant number of the original books, and add a few gospels and revelations, then you have definitely changed that compilation, and it cannot be called "intact" anymore.
None of the Bible's prophesies were specific or detailed, except the ones that didn't come true when they should have. You worship a book, and it doesn't deserve it.
Again this is purely your opinion. The Bible isn't worshipped it is used for instuction and is perfect for the follower of Christ.
It is hailed as the "word of God", and believers must uphold it as infallible, and absolutely literally true, and "God breathed". To find a flaw in that is not to merely recognize the errors of the men who wrote it. Instead Bibliolaters believe that a flaw in the Bible means that God lied. Didja get that? Many fundamentalist Biblical literalists actually state that a flaw in the Bible would disprove God. If that ain't worshipping the Bible, what is?
Since you have absolutely no experience with God and the Bible it is not to hard to understand that you might have a problem with the Bible and God as well.
While it is probably true that I've had no experience with God, (because no one really has) I have had plenty of experience with the BIble. In fact, if I had never read that, I would probably still be a Christian today.

And don't assume that just because I don't agree with you, that I have "absolutely no experience" in this area. Its rude little comments like that what make me write these long refutations instead of just letting it go. Besides, I would bet that I've probably had more of that sort of experience than you have.
Unfortunately, your opinion is just that and doesn't prove or disprove the Bible.
I did just propose an hypothesis, one that is supported by an awful lot of concrete, verifiable evidence. But I don't believe I've stated any opinions in this entire post. The Bible has already been disproved, not only by science, but by Christians. It is not a literal history, and the majority of the Christian world knows and accepts that, and has no problem with it. And that ain't just an opinion either!
 
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1GODALONE

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Evolution is an interesting theory. I flip flop alot. One day I hear that evolutionists hid some finds in cabinets so they could not be used to disprove the theory. The next I see a fully-formed fossil of what looks like a fish-lizard. But then again I see some of the descendants finds are just a jawbone and a toe, and they make an entire animal out of it. But the reptile-fish thing could just as well be a primitive alligator, and what happened to all those other transitional fossils? I believe directed evolution under the principle of limited speciation could be true, but the odds are ovewhelmingly against something creating itself. ay-yi-yi! Its a viscious cycle. where it ends, Ill know someday.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Dragar said:
when you start with the conclusion 'evolution is false', and no amount of evidence is going to change matters, what do you expect?
But my point is that whether you're talking about evolution or anything else, deciding your position in advance, without adequate research, and despite all your admitted ignorance, and deciding not to allow any unexpected evidence or arguments of any kind sway you from that baseless initial assumption, whether its true or not, -is insane.

Most definitions of sanity include "the ability to reason and to be reasoned with." But I've never met a creationist who could be reasoned with. I have a few creationists who announce at the onset that they won't listen to reason, no matter how convincing, and that reason itself must be rejected in favor of their priori religious position. I even met one guy who condemned rationalism as a Nazi religion. So I am left with an apparent probability that creationism is insane.
 
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1GODALONE said:
Evolution is an interesting theory. I flip flop alot. One day I hear that evolutionists hid some finds in cabinets so they could not be used to disprove the theory. The next I see a fully-formed fossil of what looks like a fish-lizard. But then again I see some of the descendants finds are just a jawbone and a toe, and they make an entire animal out of it. But the reptile-fish thing could just as well be a primitive alligator, and what happened to all those other transitional fossils? I believe directed evolution under the principle of limited speciation could be true, but the odds are ovewhelmingly against something creating itself. ay-yi-yi! Its a viscious cycle. where it ends, Ill know someday.
Strawman, evolution does not say that life created itself, for that matter abiogenesis doesnt say that life "created" itself either. The rate that speciation would occur if the original "kinds" on the ark were all that repopulated the Earth and created the diversity we see today would, indeed, be a miracle.
 
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1GODALONE said:
Evolution is an interesting theory. I flip flop alot. One day I hear that evolutionists hid some finds in cabinets so they could not be used to disprove the theory.
such as?
The next I see a fully-formed fossil of what looks like a fish-lizard. But then again I see some of the descendants finds are just a jawbone and a toe, and they make an entire animal out of it.
when this is done, obviously the rest of the organism is speculative, but one can gain alot of information from individual bodyparts.
But the reptile-fish thing could just as well be a primitive alligator, and what happened to all those other transitional fossils?
The problem with your speculation there is that you have not made a detailed analysis of the fossil find, so I would caution against making such hypotheses without good knowledge of the find itself. It is simple enough to dismiss something as "just a primitive alligator" when you don't know much about it.
As for all the other transitionals, well the problem here is that fossilisation is rare, and if the evolution of an organism took place in a small area, then it is highly dependent on the local environment. THis is one of the reasons that Romer's gap went unfilled for so long, but the work of researchers such as jennifer Clack and others has uncovered some remarkable finds that are clear transitional species between fish and land living organisms (in that they are a mosaic of the two)
I believe directed evolution under the principle of limited speciation could be true, but the odds are ovewhelmingly against something creating itself.
are they? Well first of all we are now talking about abiogenesis, if you are talking about "life made itself" and not evolution. Now the problem with odds calculations is that they require a good understanding of all possible paths and outcomes. There are no abiogenesis "odds" calculations that can take into account all the potential paths and outcomes, because we do not know what the potential paths and outcomes even are. The chance of a fully formed bacterium spontaneously forming in a chemical soup, probably are near zero, but what if we take an alternate path, through simple self replicating chemicals which replicate imperfectly. then instead of having a giant cliff to leap, we find ourselves climbing a shallow gradient of small incremental changes, and the once insurmoutable problem is no longer so. Trustworthy odds cannot be calculated without knowledge of full information - let me give you an example. I am standing in a carpeted room, and I drop my heavier-than-air-pen towards the floor. What are the odds of it landing on the carpet? well you'd think that (quantum tunneling and Gravity guns aside) that the odds of it hitting the carpet are 1. after all, what else can it do? well I forgot to tell you that there is a plastic sheet over the carpet, so the odds of it hitting the carpet are 0. see how quickly things change because information on the situation was missing? the same is true for abiogenesis. The creationists point towards an impossible scenario, but then neglect information that makes that scenario much more likely. A more closely related example of this is formation of amino acids. It is a commonly made point that the early atmosphere on earth would not have been friendly for making amino acids for various chemical reasons, so the creationists say that these could not form. The problem with that is that we know of extraterrestrial amino acid sources (however they are made in space) and so these can provide an answer to that problem. They then complain that the amino acids are racemic, but then we discover non-racemic mixtures, and processes in space (involving circularly polarised light) that can form non racemic mixtures, so again another problem is overcome.
This is not to say that naturalistic abiogenesis is the answer, but one does have to look extremely critically at odds calculations, for the reasons I have illustrated above.
ay-yi-yi! Its a viscious cycle. where it ends, Ill know someday.
well do let us know, and this is a good place to learn if you are genuinely interested :)
 
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Aron-Ra said:
But my point is that whether you're talking about evolution or anything else, deciding your position in advance, without adequate research, and despite all your admitted ignorance, and deciding not to allow any unexpected evidence or arguments of any kind sway you from that baseless initial assumption, whether its true or not, -is insane.

Most definitions of sanity include "the ability to reason and to be reasoned with." But I've never met a creationist who could be reasoned with. I have a few creationists who announce at the onset that they won't listen to reason, no matter how convincing, and that reason itself must be rejected in favor of their priori religious position. I even met one guy who condemned rationalism as a Nazi religion. So I am left with an apparent probability that creationism is insane.

:amen:
 
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Oncedeceived

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Aron-Ra said:
You and I have never discussed anything which could be said to fit with the Bible's account. Forgetting evolution for a moment, the Bible was still wrong about there being a world-wide flood, or a single universal language prior to the 18th Century BCE, and about the waters above where the giant crystal firmament really isn't. These aren't just my opinion. Each is a objectively discernable certainty.


You bring in your own misconceptions peppered with a little truth and call it objective. I say that Genesis is not wrong and you bring in the flood, universal language and the giant crystal firmament.

But far more scholars who are much better educated on the subject insist otherwise. You haven't shown anything. All you've done is assert it without backing or citation. I on the other hand have shown why your suggestion is impossible.

Where are yours?
Jesus was heralded as the creator of all life on Earth and was associated with a holy trinity. But Mithras and Krsna were also, thousands of years earlier. Mithras was first worshipped in Persia 1,400 years before Jesus, and Krsna is supposed to have lived in India 3,000 years before Jesus.


Give me the evidence.


[
font=Arial]Jesus' birth was heralded by a celestial event. Krsna's, Osiris', and Buddha's was too.
Gilgamesh, Hercules, Quetzalcoatle, Buddha, Dionysius, and Mithras were all said to be the sons of a god and a mortal human girl just like Jesus was. In fact, gods and mortal women were said to breed all the time. There are dozens of these kids throughout mythology, and Quetzacoatle was the only one among them worshipped after Jesus' time.

Mithras, Bacchus (Dionysius) Quetzalcoatle, Horus, Quirrnus, Indra, Zoroaster, Buddha, and even Plato and Alexander the Great were all said to have been conceived without sexual intercourse, usually by virgins, according to documents that (with only one exception), all predate Jesus by 100 to 600 years.

Osiris the son was an incarnation of the father. In the same sense, Krsna was an avatar, just as many Christians believe Jesus was also.

Buddha, Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysius were all born during Winter Solstace, ie late December, or December 25th specifically. Almost all the gods ever conceived were born on Christmas day, if their birthdate was known at all. It was Emporer Constantine who decided that Jesus would have been born on the same day as the elder gods.

Buddha was visited by three wise men in infancy, who recognized his divinity. At that time, (around 560 years before Jesus) they presented him with gifts of "costly jewels and precious substances".

Centuries before Jesus was ever born, Moses, Dionysius, Buddha, Krsna, and Quirinus' lives were being threatened in childhood by the resident ruler in each of their lands; one who feared an eventual overthrow at their hands. Dionysius was saved from this in exactly the same manner as Moses was; by being set adrift in a river.

Quetzalcoatle, Zoroaster, and Buddha were each tempted by their resident forms of Satan. Mara [Satan] promised Buddha all the kingdoms of the world. Buddha refused in exactly the same manner as Jesus did. Buddha also fasted for "a long period".

Mithras, Zoroaster, and Dionysius cured the sick.
Dionysius cured lepers specifically.
Zoraoster and Osiris cast out demons.
Zoroaster, Krsna, and Mithras made the blind see.
Osiris and Mithras raised the dead.
Mithras made the lame walk.
Buddha fed vast multitudes on only a meager amount of food
Dionysius (Bacchus) turned water into wine, while at a wedding no less!
Osiris, Buddha, and Krsna walked on water. Indra also walked on the air.
Buddha was transfigured on the mount near the end of his terrestrial existence.
Mithras and Indra remained celibate throughout their lives.
Mithras had a last supper of wine and bread in the company of twelve desciples.
Osiris had a last supper that symbolized his eventual corpse.

Most of these gods either died or were either crucified on or about Easter, ie the Vernal Equinox. Mithras, Dionysius, and Indra were depicted in pre-Christian era artifacts as crucified on a cross exactly as Jesus appears on a crucifix.

orpheus_crux.jpg


Prometheus was crucified on a rock to atone for the sin of man's discovering "forbidden knowledge". This is according to a play written by Aeschylus in 430 BCE. Eight years earlier than that, another Greek playwright told of Alcestis being crucified in order to secure a man's salvation. She died on the cross, but was resurrected after three days in the land of the dead.

Mithras was rendered with the same halo that later artists would adorn Jesus with.
The dogma of Attis (Atys) and of Mithras mention sacrificial and baptismal blood specifically. Osiris' followers were cleansed of their sins in a baptismal of blood and were "born again."

The whole world was envoloped in darkness when Budda, Quirinus, Crite, and Krsna died. For Prometheus' crucifixion, there was also great Earthquakes.

Mithras, Dionysius, Krsna, Indra, Adonis, Thulis, Osiris, Ba'al, Alcestis, and Attis were said to have been physically resurrected after their deaths. Dionysus even changed his name to Dionysus II and lived a second life. He died twice here on Earth before his immortal soul ascended to the afterworld of the gods. And this too is according to documentation that is (at the very least) 600 years older than Jesus.

Attis of Phrygia was called "the Good Sheppard," the "Most High God," the "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior."

Gautama Buddha was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

The Greek Dionysius was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

Hecules was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."

Osiris of Egypt was called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Zoroaster of Persia was called "The Word made flesh"

Apart from Quetzocoatle and Quirrinus, all of these other pre-Christian Christs were worshipped hundreds or thousands of years before Jesus. So there's no way they could have adapted their stories from his. Everything Jesus ever did, a handful of pagan gods had all done centuries earlier.

But wait! There's more! [to be continued...]


Please give me your sources. You make many, many claims here and I would like you to give me your sources for each one.
 
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Aron-Ra said:
As you yourself said, the very earliest book of the Bible wasn't written until about 1500 BCE. But the 22,000 Cuneiform tablets in Ashurburnipal's library are each known to be several centuries older than that. And more importantly, they all were written by the same culture!

The Sumerian creation myth, Enuma Elish, says all life was borne in the belly of the sea, including each of the gods. The rest of the world on dry land was created by six generations of gods. The sixth divine generation created a man, Adamah, (the man of the red dirt). "Let us make man in our own image", they said. And it became man's job to complete creation so that the seventh generation of gods could rest. This same tale was also told in the Epic of Atrahasis. Except in that, they crafted 14 people, male and female, they created them by molding clay figurines out of the dust of the Earth. Then they killed one of their own as a sacrifice. One of the gods died for the good of mankind. After each of these figurines were soaked in his blood, the goddess, Mami breathed into them the breath of life.

Another passage in Enuma Elish concerned an immortal named Enki who trespassed on the sacred garden of Inanna, eating many of the fruits therein that were all forbidden to him. The goddess, Ninhursag witnessed his sin. She cursed him, and he fell. But Ninhursag freely forgave the fallen immortal and bore seven daughters to cure his wounds. One of them was called Ninti, the "daughter borne of the rib", for she was meant to close the wound to his side.

In the Epic of Gilgamesh, another work in Ashurburnipal's library, the goddess Inanna plants a special tree in her garden. Later, Gilgamesh while walking through the sacred grounds, discovered the dark maid, Lilith, whom Talmudic legend would one day call Adam's first wife. She had made her home in the forbidden tree, along with her companion, a serpent who could not be tamed. Gilgamesh, the god-king drew his blade, and drove Lilith and the serpent away from the forbidden tree, and out of the sacred garden forever.

Part of the epic of Atrahasis is repeated as part of the epic of Gilgamesh. But in that, Atrahasis' name is changed to Utnapishtim. This character was most commonly known as Ziusudra, but was also later called Xisuthros, and Sisuthros, and finally, Noah. Whatever his name really was, the ancient Sumerian Book of the Kings describes him as the son of Ubar-Tutu, king of Shuruppak, which dates the epic flood at sometime in the 29th Century BCE. In every account, mankind disturbed the gods in their rest, so the gods wrought a great flood to kill them all. But Ziusudra and his family were saved when he received a divine warning to tear down his house and build a great barge, one big enough for his entire menagerie and the best of all his livestock. The Bible departs from the original in that Ziusudra's flood came in as a rush of water with a dark cloud in the background. Be it a storm surge or volcanic tsunami, it broke the dykes and moved in over the land in a rage, destroying everything in the entire Tigris-Euphrates flood plain. In every version of this story, including the one eventually included in Genesis, most of the details were similar or identical, including the depth of the flood; 15 cubits, or 22 feet. This wasn't enough even to muddy the foothills of Ararat many hundreds of miles away. But it was enough to obscure every hilltop visible from Shuruppak. In the Gilgamesh version, only the treetops can be seen rising above the waves. So he releases a bird to find the land. As the waters recede the waterways are damned by hundreds of human bodies. On the seventh day, the barge comes to rest on an estuary at the mouth of the river, and a thankful Noah offers a sacrifice to the gods on a hill near its banks.

These ancient tablets was estimated to have been written at different times running from 1700 BCE to 2200 BCE, and were composed by Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Chaldeans, the latter being a Semitic people ancestral to the Jews. So it ascends beyond the realm of mere myth in that at least a few of these characters may have really existed. If so, then Gilgamesh king of Urok, was literally the first man described by name and deed in all of recorded history. And what is believed to be his tomb was recently discovered by archaeologists in Iraq. The Sumerian King List is the oldest historic document known to man. And it indicates that the story of Noah is loosely based on someone who actually lived as well. There is now some scientific support of this position too as archaeological surveys at the site of Shuruppak also confirm that the whole place was once deluged under approximately two dozen feet of water, roughly 5,000 years ago.

The dates are difficult to determine because all these legends were written before the invention of the number zero. The numeric system of Shuruppak wasn't based on ten but sixty. Consequently, the formula for calculating the exact figures is very difficult to work out. If read as written, the monarchy descended directly from heaven, and each of the earliest kings ruled for tens of thousands of years, a heck of a long lifetime by anyone's standards. However comparisons of mundane documents like the sales receipts of cattle indicate that in some cases, simply dividing by either ten or twelve will often provide a more accurate number. This is how someone in their early eighties could be said to be 969 years old. Still, an eighty year-old man living back then would be impressive, since people in most primitive societies seldom live to see their 50th or even 40th birthday.

So there are several significant parallels between many of the stories in the Bible and the work of the Mesopotamians from at least 1,000 years earlier. But the similarities don't stop there. One of the legends of the Pharaoh, Seneferu is that he had one of his mages part the red sea just to retrieve a bauble accidentally dropped by one of his lovely maidens. And the Chaldean hero, Hammurabi supposedly went up a mountain to receive the famous Law Code from the sun-god, Shamash. Both of these events were to have taken place at least 300 years before the time of Moses. So Moses' version can't possibly be the original, now can it? Hammurabi's is, and his original Law Code is now on display (in real life) at the London museum. But the lost ark of the covenant apparently exists only in movies.

Beelzebub, the "Lord of the Flies" and the "prince of devils" in the New Testament, was really Ba'al Zebul, "the high prince", and "lord of the home", and an apparently real king of the city of Ugarit around the time of Job, and just a couple centuries before Moses. Lucifer, son of the Dawn, in Isaiah 14:12 was really a Babylonian prince named Helel ben Shahar. He tried to overthrow his father, king Shahar, (the dawn) brother of Shalim, (the dusk) but his koo was defeated, and he was cast down. The story was transferred to astrology where Helel is played by the planet Venus, (the morning star, or "Day star") and his father is the moon. Shahar and Shalim both claimed to be the sons of El, as did Jesus eventually. And El (Elyon) is played by the rising sun, diminishing Venus and accepting only the moon by his side or in his absence. The serpent, as you know, was literally that, a snake, keeping company with the wrong woman in the wrong place.

Somehow, Lilith and the serpent traded identities for about 1,000 years, as all of the early Renaissance renderings of the Temptation of Eve depict the serpent of the garden as a woman, allegedly, Lilith, (Lilitu) according to rabbinical scholars. This tradition endured through many famous artists, and many great works including the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and the stone walls of the cathedral at Notre Dame. In King James' time, the people adopted a new serpent, and cast "the devil" in that role instead. But even Satan himself isn't who most people think it is. The Hebrew word is Shai'tan, which means "the opposer", specifically, one who opposes faith. The current Semitic concept of this character seems to be based on a Persian deity from 600 BCE. According to the Zend Avesta, rightous men, upon their deaths may be taken to the Kingdom of Justice and Truth under Ahura-Mazda, the principle god of Zoroastrianism. The alternative is to doom evil men to the Kingdom of the Lie, ruled by Ahriman, the lord of lies, also known as "the Opposer". And the list goes on and on with many more even more profound parallels between the character of Jesus and that of Prometheus, Dionysus, Alcestis, Mithras, Apollo, Hercules, Krsna, Osiris, Buddha, and Zarathustra, all of whom were worshiped centuries earlier.

So, Stilldeceived, how do you think all these parallels come to be? Your explanation seems to be that each of the pagan legends is somehow loosely based on the Bible, which is still somehow the original revealed truth, and that all the pagan stories are merely fables distorted (perhaps by demonic intent) to confuse the faith of those who still hold the Bible to be the only truly accurate document men have ever managed to write in the entire history of journalism. In this perspective, Noah's version of the flood stayed uncorrupted over thousands of years while each of the Mesopotamian variants were all confused almost immediately, even though they each match each other more than any of them do the account in Genesis.

But I have another explanation, and it concerns another story in the Bible that may have a element of truth to it. The Mesopotamian empires were the most advanced culture of their age. But as with all empires, there came an unfortunate end. Hamurabi and Nebuchadnezzar both worked to erect the Marduk Ziggurat, a mammoth tower who's ruins can still be seen from the site of the old hanging gardens of Babylon. But the tower of Babel(on) took generations to build, and the empires that financed it collapsed before it could be completed. Very quickly, the world's most advanced society were in many cases reduced to living as nomadic and unlearned cattle herders. The very people who had invented syllabic text were illiterate in just a few decadese, and kept their ancestral traditions alive orally for at least 50 generations until the old stories could be written down again by the Phoenicians and the Greeks. By that time, it became evident that the religions of all the neighboring cultures whom they encountered had some influence over the content of their tales. Only Ashurburnipal's library remained intact, locked away in a vault and buried for thousands of years. Then as we peer into the original works, we can see how much western theism has evolved from its polytheist roots. There is no way the Bible could be the original version. Because the details of all these others don't match up the way they should if that were true. And all of them were written by the very grandfathers of those who would eventually compose or compile the Biblical version.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are the absolute oldest of any of the Biblical records, I'll grant you that. But they contain little more than just the Book of Isaiah, and even that is only about 250 years older than Jesus himself. About half of the Bible is completely unknown as it has been lost forever ages ago. If you think its still intact, then c[/size][/font]rack open yours and look for the lost prophesy that Christ should be a Nazarene, or the prediction of Elias' restoration. What about the books of the Covenant and of the Wars of the Lord, the books of Jasher, Shemaiah or Jehu? Of Statutes, the Prophesy of Ahijah and Visions of Iddo, or the acts of Solomon, Nathan and Gad, or of Uzziah by Isaiah? Where are the sayings of the seers, the epistle of Jude or Paul's epistles to the Corinthians, Ephesians and Liodiceans? All these books are referenced elsewhere as being part of the whole, yet they're all missing now, omitted by men altering the supposedly infallible and inalterable word of God at their mere mortal whim.

Now when you arbitrarily remove a significant number of the original books, and add a few gospels and revelations, then you have definitely changed that compilation, and it cannot be called "intact" anymore.
It is hailed as the "word of God", and believers must uphold it as infallible, and absolutely literally true, and "God breathed". To find a flaw in that is not to merely recognize the errors of the men who wrote it. Instead Bibliolaters believe that a flaw in the Bible means that God lied. Didja get that? Many fundamentalist Biblical literalists actually state that a flaw in the Bible would disprove God. If that ain't worshipping the Bible, what is? [/size][/font]
While it is probably true that I've had no experience with God, (because no one really has) I have had plenty of experience with the BIble. In fact, if I had never read that, I would probably still be a Christian today. [/size][/font]

And don't assume that just because I don't agree with you, that I have "absolutely no experience" in this area. Its rude little comments like that what make me write these long refutations instead of just letting it go. Besides, I would bet that I've probably had more of that sort of experience than you have.
I did just propose an hypothesis, one that is supported by an awful lot of concrete, verifiable evidence. But I don't believe I've stated any opinions in this entire post. The Bible has already been disproved, not only by science, but by Christians. It is not a literal history, and the majority of the Christian world knows and accepts that, and has no problem with it. And that ain't just an opinion either!


Sources please.
 
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