Evangelization

[BrAndreyu]

There was another article on here that I just got finished reading about a woman who started a pro-life women's health ministry and she has a quote

Winning a political argument is simply not enough for me. I want to win souls for Christ.

This got me thinking about the differences in evangelism between Catholics and the protestants, specifically evangelicals. It strikes me as harder to evangelize as a Catholic, because there is no "sinner's prayer" that you can give to someone and then invite them to come to your church.

You have to point them in the direction of an RCIA class, hope that they decide to take it, further hope that they decide to go through with the entire thing, then they have to get baptized and finally are received into the church at Easter. This strikes me as being way too difficult & time consuming for most people these days. Whereas the Evangelical protestants simply give the gospel to someone, lead them through a prayer, and then this person can start fully attending their church.

Am I missing something here? Why do we have it set up to be exceedingly time consuming and difficult for people to make a conversion to Christianity when people's souls are on the line and someone could start RCIA and then the next day, God forbid, get into a car accident and lose their life? Am I completely alone in seeing this as being kind of counterproductive for the Great Commission that Christ himself gave to us?

 

[Michie]

There was another article on here that I just got finished reading about a woman who started a pro-life women's health ministry and she has a quote



This got me thinking about the differences in evangelism between Catholics and the protestants, specifically evangelicals. It strikes me as harder to evangelize as a Catholic, because there is no "sinner's prayer" that you can give to someone and then invite them to come to your church.

You have to point them in the direction of an RCIA class, hope that they decide to take it, further hope that they decide to go through with the entire thing, then they have to get baptized and finally are received into the church at Easter. This strikes me as being way too difficult & time consuming for most people these days. Whereas the Evangelical protestants simply give the gospel to someone, lead them through a prayer, and then this person can start fully attending their church.

Am I missing something here? Why do we have it set up to be exceedingly time consuming and difficult for people to make a conversion to Christianity when people's souls are on the line and someone could start RCIA and then the next day, God forbid, get into a car accident and lose their life? Am I completely alone in seeing this as being kind of counterproductive for the Great Commission that Christ himself gave to us?

There is no sinner’s prayer in Scripture either. The purpose of RCIA, etc. is to promote understanding of the Faith they are thinking of following. People can still attend Church and are often considered Catholic already. Should someone die in the process of conversion they’d still get a Catholic funeral. Cursillo is often considered a Catholic evangelization group. The only thing is waiting to receive communion after one is accepted into the Church. We also have the option of receiving spiritual communion. Many Churches have a rite of initiation. It’s not just the Catholic Church. Just by attending shows they have already accepted Jesus Christ. That’s why they are there unless it’s because of marrying a Catholic spouse or whatever. God knows our hearts.

 

[HTacianas]

There was another article on here that I just got finished reading about a woman who started a pro-life women's health ministry and she has a quote



This got me thinking about the differences in evangelism between Catholics and the protestants, specifically evangelicals. It strikes me as harder to evangelize as a Catholic, because there is no "sinner's prayer" that you can give to someone and then invite them to come to your church.

You have to point them in the direction of an RCIA class, hope that they decide to take it, further hope that they decide to go through with the entire thing, then they have to get baptized and finally are received into the church at Easter. This strikes me as being way too difficult & time consuming for most people these days. Whereas the Evangelical protestants simply give the gospel to someone, lead them through a prayer, and then this person can start fully attending their church.

Am I missing something here? Why do we have it set up to be exceedingly time consuming and difficult for people to make a conversion to Christianity when people's souls are on the line and someone could start RCIA and then the next day, God forbid, get into a car accident and lose their life? Am I completely alone in seeing this as being kind of counterproductive for the Great Commission that Christ himself gave to us?

Just a note. You'll find a lot of those "sinner's prayer" evangelicals who say the sinner's prayer then run out "evangelizing" the whole world. But examine the Great Commission:

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Those people you speak of will more likely than not tell you that you don't have to be baptized, yet it says right there "he who believes and is baptized". And there is a host of other things left out as well.

That is why you have the RCIA.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Just by attending shows they have already accepted Jesus Christ. That’s why they are there unless it’s because of marrying a Catholic spouse or whatever. God knows our hearts.

So you can invite someone to accept Christ still and then point them to RCIA after the fact? The church is not teaching that someone has to go through RCIA to "accept Christ into their heart" and be saved?

This is a big point of contention that I've had to try and explain to people, and my "folk belief" always was that if you actually had a repentance and "accepted Christ into you heart" and went to mass, but hadn't been through RCIA yet and God forbid, something were to happen to you in the meantime (Like a car accident or an aggressive illness) that there is a good chance that you would still be saved.

I'm not certain of what the official church teaching is on that one, but that's how I've always understood the call to evangelize to people and I've found that sometimes, people are willing to believe the gospel and "Ask Jesus Into Their Heart™" but aren't willing to go to the same church as you. Usually because the mass isn't a "rock concert" environment with the raising of hands, crying, and emotional sermons which is a big thing among my generation around here.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Those people you speak of will more likely than not tell you that you don't have to be baptized, yet it says right there "he who believes and is baptized". And there is a host of other things left out as well.

The thing is: a lot of the churches around here will baptize you right after the altar call. Maybe the next week when you come. They don't make you go through any formal process to actually learn what you are claiming to believe, why you claim to believe it, so on and so on.

I've never been successful at getting someone to go through RCIA. I've got a friend now who is thinking about coming back to mass for the first time since he was a child, but those are the only sorts of stories that I have in terms of the catholic church. I've given the gospel to other people but then they usually start attending a Hillsongy church and while people in the Catholicweb will tell me that I should be bothered and offended by this, I'm really not. Perhaps that's a moral failing on my part, but if I can get someone to believe the gospel who previously didn't, I count that as a win even if they don't choose to go through RCIA and go to church with me.

 

[HTacianas]

The thing is: a lot of the churches around here will baptize you right after the altar call. Maybe the next week when you come. They don't make you go through any formal process to actually learn what you are claiming to believe, why you claim to believe it, so on and so on.

I've never been successful at getting someone to go through RCIA. I've got a friend now who is thinking about coming back to mass for the first time since he was a child, but those are the only sorts of stories that I have in terms of the catholic church. I've given the gospel to other people but then they usually start attending a Hillsongy church and while people in the Catholicweb will tell me that I should be bothered and offended by this, I'm really not. Perhaps that's a moral failing on my part, but if I can get someone to believe the gospel who previously didn't, I count that as a win even if they don't choose to go through RCIA and go to church with me.

If you get someone to attend RCIA you've done a good thing. But please remember, neither you nor I are evangelists. We are laymen. Jesus charged his apostles with the great commission, not everyone. We are to:

1Pe 3:15 ...sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Don't concern yourself with competing with pop culture rock concert forms of religion. Share your faith. I've read your posts. You do a good job of that. If anything is meant to come of it something will come of it.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Don't concern yourself with competing with pop culture rock concert forms of religion. Share your faith. I've read your posts. You do a good job of that. If anything is meant to come of it something will come of it.

My best friend is thinking about returning to mass. He had offers from his sister-in-law to go to a pop culture rock church, but he said that he found the idea "horrendous" and that gave me a lot of hope for him.

He used to have to go to mass as a kid, was even an altar boy for a while but ended up "hating it" as a teenager and sleeping in the car most mornings when they would get up and go at 7am. We talk a lot about how society is changing a lot, how we don't like it and he's said "I wish I would have been able to give my kids some sort of religious background" so I've told him "Why can't you? It's not too late". He seems interested in checking out the Latin mass with me sometime because it's "Something I would probably like because it's old school", so I pray for him every day that he'll eventually come back.

Jesus charged his apostles with the great commission, not everyone.

If that's true, that's a big weight off of my shoulders. I spent some time in the Mainline and Evangelical protestant world after I was confirmed and started exploring Christianity more widely and they always said that it's every believer's responsibility to bring people into the church, which is something I've never been particularly good at or have really felt comfortable doing. I'm fine with talking about what I believe when people ask, I'm just not as comfortable with having to actually get them to commit to faith in Christ because I can't. Only the Holy Spirit can really do that at the end of the day.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

A Catechism is difficult, perhaps too difficult for most people these days. But why would any Christian desire most people these days in an age where the influence of Christianity is fading from public life? If this were the 17th century where Christian standards ruled and even nominal believers had to act according to those standards there is in that an argument for making it easier to become Christian, to reach more people in the hopes they progress further on into God. That can only happen in a society that values Christianity. We live in a society that doesn't value Christianity.

In an age of decline, Christians should try to become the best, try to reach out to those who would make the best Christians and who will stay around for longer. Not everyone, and I am sorry to say this, can be saved. Not everyone will be receptive to the Gospel even if you make it easier, even if you get rid of all the barriers to becoming a member of the Church you will find any such people who enter Christianity that easily are probably more likely to leave it just as easily.

Christianity is not an open settlement without walls. It is a fortress town guarding a precious treasure and only those who accept the terms of that town are allowed to enter her and bare witness to the treasure. The terms are quite easy once they're accepted but they are inviolable and cannot be done away with.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Am I missing something here?

I actually see what your talking about as a good thing and not a bad thing. So much of Protestant Evangelism is so gimmicky. Catholics got other things going for them and not just RCA but Cursio, god parents, lots of community life. It reminds me of this book and various discussions of "Ancient Future" church stuff on a certain "postmodern Christian" (evangelical) internet board in earlier days on the internet.


QUOTE (Robert Webber, Ancient Future Faith)
"During my seminary education, I never felt we really addressed the question: “What does it mean to be a member of the church” Later, when I turned to the early Christian tradition and began, for the first time, to understand what it meant to be a member of the body of Christ, it was like removing blinders that had covered my eyes.
I learned from the early Fathers that the church is intrinsically connected with Christ and his victory over the power of evil. The church is therefore to be regarded as a kind of continuation of the presence of Jesus in the world. Jesus is not only seated at the right hand of the Father, but is visibly and tangibly present in and to the world through the church. This is an incarnational understanding of the church. It is a unique community of people in the world, a community like no other community because it is the presence of the divine in and to the world. This concept of the church has specific relevance to the world of postmodernism.
. . . What this means for the church is that Christians must recover the primacy of being a Christian community. . . .
. . . the church is the primary presence of God’s activity in the world. As we pay attention to what it means to be the church we create an alternative community to the society of the world. This new community, the embodied experience of God’s kingdom, will draw people into itself and nurture them in the faith. In this sense the church and its life in the world will become the new apologetic. People come to the faith not because they see the logic of the argument but because they have experienced a welcoming God in a hospitable and loving community. QUOTE
– Ancient-Future Faith, pp. 70-72"

 

[BrAndreyu]

I actually see what your talking about as a good thing and not a bad thing. So much of Protestant Evangelism is so gimmicky.

I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't understand how the church hierarchy expects the laity to evangelize, which from what I gather now from this thread: they don't. The job of evangelization is strictly that of the apostles and their successors. So priests, bishops, etc are called to fulfill the Great Commission but we laypeople are not, which takes a lot of pressure off of the laity.

See, I'm used to churches expecting members of the congregation to go out and get conversions, get butts in the seats and thus, tithes in the plate so that the pastor can get a nicer car or a bigger house. I spent some time in the evangelical world and mainline protestantism after confirmation, which is where I picked a lot of the Great Commission tropes up.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

See, I'm used to churches expecting members of the congregation to go out and get conversions, get butts in the seats and thus, tithes in the plate so that the pastor can get a nicer car or a bigger house. I spent some time in the evangelical world and mainline protestantism after confirmation, which is where I picked a lot of the Great Commission tropes up.

haha you and me brother!

So priests, bishops, etc are called to fulfill the Great Commission but we laypeople are not, which takes a lot of pressure off of the laity.

I suspect Father Matt of You-tube fame would have something to say on that. And in fact he does, more than one video on it.

OK I kind of suspected of him having another one on people's vocations vs. the general call to represent your faith, which he sort of talks about in other videos. In my experience Good Catholics can do that, my aunt and uncle and cousins on my dad's side of the family being a prime example of answering my questions about praying to the saints that I had as a Lutheran lad beginning Confirmation class (I was taught the typical stereotypical stuff in class)

 

[BrAndreyu]

Fr. Matt is an interesting character. I was watching a Pints with Aquinas episode with him on it yesterday where he was talking about intermittent fasting that he does. There was a lot more to the episode than just that, but I had it on in the background while I was playing video games so my full attention was not devoted to it. I'll have to rewatch it.

In my experience Good Catholics can do that, my aunt and uncle and cousins on my dad's side of the family being a prime example of answering my questions about praying to the saints that I had as a Lutheran lad beginning Confirmation class

I'll talk about what I personally believe to people when they ask, but I try not to make statements on behalf of the church itself because I don't know everything that the church as an institution believes (and I have my own challenges in believing some of the dogmas that they have, so I just tend to not talk about any of that even if it comes up and just say "I don't really know").

Like I said, I have a friend who is kicking around the idea about coming back to church after a long time away. He just want to go to something that "feels ancient" rather than one of the new Hillsongy churches that his sister-in-law is always trying to get him to attend (again, part of that evangelical "get their butts in the seats and their tithes in the plate" attitude I was talking about). He's considering going to one of the Latin masses with me some Sunday if he has the time, but that's a commitment because it involves making a 35+ mile drive on the interstate.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Like I said, I have a friend who is kicking around the idea about coming back to church after a long time away. He just want to go to something that "feels ancient" rather than one of the new Hillsongy churches that his sister-in-law is always trying to get him to attend (again, part of that evangelical "get their butts in the seats and their tithes in the plate" attitude I was talking about). He's considering going to one of the Latin masses with me some Sunday if he has the time, but that's a commitment because it involves making a 35+ mile drive on the interstate.

And this I believe gives me ample reason to link one of my favorite parody videos...

I'll talk about what I personally believe to people when they ask, but I try not to make statements on behalf of the church itself because I don't know everything that the church as an institution believes (and I have my own challenges in believing some of the dogmas that they have, so I just tend to not talk about any of that even if it comes up and just say "I don't really know").

Well the EO have a statement called "Come and See" which is reminiscent of some of those scenes from the New Testament where people bring their relatives, friends etc. to Jesus or at least the Apostles in the book of Acts. The Copts also like to talk about how "the road to Emmaus" is a kind of a microcosm of the Gospel, the Liturgy etc.

I think there is something to that. The Copts other than the Antiochians (basically the Peter Quilquist crowd from books like "Becoming Orthodox") were some of the few to sort of get into the idea of Evangelism Orthodox style, where one deacon made a program for it. It is kind of interesting, it reminds me of a mixture of "Friendship evangelism", seeker sensitive, and even "the Alpha" class stuff that I studied back in the days when I was an Evangelical and part time seminary student. And it is available online.


Orthodox Evangelism

 

[BrAndreyu]

And this I believe gives me ample reason to link one of my favorite parody videos...

This is one of the greatest things I think I've ever seen, because I've been to plenty of "churches" like that and was going to one prior to coming back to the Catholic church. The whole thing always feels so forced and basically does break down exactly the way this video broke it down, from the "displaying my tattoo so you see that I have a past" to "whispering... repetition... pained expression". This is exactly the UMC church that I was attending prior to going to jail last year. I was dating an afro-honduran woman who sang in one of those worship bands... that video is exactly on point.

It is kind of interesting, it reminds me of a mixture of "Friendship evangelism", seeker sensitive, and even "the Alpha" class stuff that I studied back in the days when I was an Evangelical and part time seminary student. And it is available online.

I've noticed that most Catholic & EO churches are more "seeker sensitive" than a lot of those Hillsongy churches in that if you're seeking after God, you definitely find him in a Catholic mass or EO divine liturgy. I think that's the reason why I kept coming back over the years and why I always felt safe and comfortable at a Catholic church but never felt safe or comfortable at one of those pop rock "churches". Part of me still struggles with a fascination with the Orthodox church and I consider jumping ship from Rome for Constantinople usually when the next new scandal breaks. I haven't made any decisions yet and I attend the Roman church here in town because it's easiest and most comfortable for me as it's what I know from my childhood (It's the exact church that I was confirmed in as a matter of fact). I do debate entering the EO (particularly the Greek Orthodox church) rather frequently and have a book called "Introducing The Orthodox Church" that I need to reread.

 

[Michie]

And this I believe gives me ample reason to link one of my favorite parody videos...

Well the EO have a statement called "Come and See" which is reminiscent of some of those scenes from the New Testament where people bring their relatives, friends etc. to Jesus or at least the Apostles in the book of Acts. The Copts also like to talk about how "the road to Emmaus" is a kind of a microcosm of the Gospel, the Liturgy etc.

I think there is something to that. The Copts other than the Antiochians (basically the Peter Quilquist crowd from books like "Becoming Orthodox") were some of the few to sort of get into the idea of Evangelism Orthodox style, where one deacon made a program for it. It is kind of interesting, it reminds me of a mixture of "Friendship evangelism", seeker sensitive, and even "the Alpha" class stuff that I studied back in the days when I was an Evangelical and part time seminary student. And it is available online.


Orthodox Evangelism

That video is freakin hilarious and so true! Lol

 

[BrAndreyu]

That video is freakin hilarious and so true! Lol

"Give if you feel led. It's between you and God, but we're tracking it"

One of them up the road doesn't even have a pastor that preaches sermons. They pipe in a sermon from a "central campus" in Texas or somewhere, the pastor that is at that location's sole purpose is to try and convince people to part with money.

Starting a church like this is a great money making scheme. That must be why there are so many of them that pop up in my town.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

One of them up the road doesn't even have a pastor that preaches sermons. They pipe in a sermon from a "central campus" in Texas or somewhere, the pastor that is at that location's sole purpose is to try and convince people to part with money.

Wow that is really lazy.

Starting a church like this is a great money making scheme. That must be why there are so many of them that pop up in my town.

I hate to say it but even among pastors I knew that were sincere etc. that there is a certain amount of this that is true. That the church is basically like a family run business. And this can be true etc. even when the a minister's kid isn't really cut out to be a pastor. Which was something that I saw first hand as a Lutheran, the elder pastor was a cold hearted theologian (no empathy or bedside manner whatever), who probably should have taught at a Lutheran seminary somewhere, except that the church left the Missouri synod it was a part of because liberals tried to take over.

But it did give me sympathy when I actually learned the origins of Roman Catholic clerical celibacy in the middle ages. That basically started because these families would pastor a church for so many generations etc. and then eventually get the idea that, the parish in question was the personal property of their family and more or less run it like a fiefdom or family business, selling off assets and doing what they pleased with it.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Wow that is really lazy.

There's more than one church here in town that operates like that. As a rule, they're generally Contemporvant (I am going to start using that term) churches. They have the "pastor" in hip clothes whose entire job it is to get the people that come to part with money, they never preach or anything.

I hate to say it but even among pastors I knew that were sincere etc. that there is a certain amount of this that is true. That the church is basically like a family run business.

I blame it on that book that was big in the late 90s that was titled something along the lines of "Grow your church like a business". I don't remember the actual title, but that about sums it up. I also blame evangelical protestantism as a whole because of the idea that all a church is, is when "two or more gather in my name". Usually these places start off as "house churches" and end up moving into a storefront, then a freestanding building, last for a few months, and then disappear. They're essentially businesses and it makes me sick to my stomach as someone who is part of a real church that really cares about people's spiritual health and journey.

I think that the rise of the "nones" is helping people to see through that morally bankrupt vision of "Church as business" though. I don't think that it's good for society that less people are going to church than ever before, but it's good for the grand institutional churches like Roman Catholicism and EO-- they offer something time-tested and real rather than saccharine, emotion-driven church "experiences" that are little more than Christian rock concerts with a sermon once a week.

Part of the thing that keeps me in the Catholic church is that they celebrate the mass every day save for Good Friday, so I can always go when I need a boost.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

There's more than one church here in town that operates like that. As a rule, they're generally Contemporvant (I am going to start using that term) churches. They have the "pastor" in hip clothes whose entire job it is to get the people that come to part with money, they never preach or anything.

This all reminds me of a thread and a video I posted on last year. Before I moved to PA from Charlotte NC area, I worked at a TV station, as a security contractor. But I took an interest in the programs they did, since I was fascinated by TV as a California kid and kind of always wanted to see how things were done behind the scenes. Anyway a year or so, before I started working at WCNC Charlotte they did a pretty cool multipart series on some of the ethically challenged churches of the area including a famous Contemporvant one.

 

[BrAndreyu]

Oh yeah, Steven Furtick. He's one of the worst ones. I look at guys like him, Joel Osteen and other megachurch pastors & I realize exactly what's wrong with American Christianity. People criticize the Vatican for having a lot of money, and they do, but I've never seen a Catholic priest living in a house with 7 & a half bathrooms. It's a great racket but I could never get into it and look myself in the mirror in the morning because it's the last thing that Christ would want out of his church.

Megachurch pastors are wolves in sheep's clothing.