• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Euthyphro's Dilemma (for atheists)

Which is true?


  • Total voters
    16

Tanj

Redefined comfortable middle class
Mar 31, 2017
7,682
8,318
60
Australia
✟284,806.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,642
✟499,308.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You're missing the point and you're way off the mark in what you think my conception of morality is. Point is, the stuff people generally call moral, they also generally like. The stuff people generally call immoral, they also generally dislike. You say you're different, as though you wouldn't say a lot of the same things I just said. But to be honest, some stuff you've said makes it sound like you never gave it much thought.

I tip my hat to your attempt to pivot and put me on the defensive. But we were talking about whether or not there's an overlap in what you believe to be moral and your likes and dislikes. I gave you examples to work from to discuss your preferences and morals as you requested. If you want to discuss what morality is, I'll be glad to argue with you over it in one of the other threads already covering that topic.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
28,105
19,719
Colorado
✟549,821.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
"Some things which I prefer, I prefer them because those things are moral"

Yes. Surely I am conditioned by all the rewards society offers for moral behavior.

"All things which are moral, are moral because I prefer those things"

No. No one made me king of whats moral and what isnt. This is probably better for everybody.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

I march with Sherman
Mar 11, 2017
22,729
16,996
55
USA
✟429,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
A hypothetical system of objective morality.

OK, thanks.

You laid out natural law like it was a property the Universe needed. I don't see how the Universe could have moral laws. (It has what we might euphemistically call "physical laws", but nothing about the strong nuclear force (for example) implies anything about morality.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,642
✟499,308.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Either you recognized what is moral, or you chose what is moral. In the first scenario all you've done is described how society affected your choice. So you're actually an option 2.
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Either you recognized what is moral, or you chose what is moral. In the first scenario all you've done is described how society affected your choice. So you're actually an option 2.

For example. Who does not recognize, and then choose?
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
28,105
19,719
Colorado
✟549,821.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Either you recognized what is moral, or you chose what is moral. In the first scenario all you've done is described how society affected your choice. So you're actually an option 2.
"Some things which I prefer, I prefer them because those things are moral"

I prefer moral things because I'm conditioned to do that by culture and somewhat by biology.

Things arent made moral in the human world by my personal preferences. Thats backwards.
 
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,642
✟499,308.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
If you want to start with option one you have to start with "There are moral things". You are starting with "Society shaped me" and then the next step comes from you not the thing.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,642
✟499,308.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
For example. Who does not recognize, and then choose?
Imagine two scenarios.

I sit down at the dinner table and see steak. I recognize that steak is for dinner.

I sit down at the dinner table and there is nothing there. I ask the wife for steak, because I choose that steak be for dinner.

Either you recognize what is moral, or you choose what is moral.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Larniavc sir, how are you so smart?"
Jul 14, 2015
15,355
9,366
52
✟397,220.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I don’t think either are true for me.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
28,105
19,719
Colorado
✟549,821.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
If you want to start with option one you have to start with "There are moral things". You are starting with "Society shaped me" and then the next step comes from you not the thing.
I acknowledge the existence of moral things in the first 4 words of my sentence:

"I prefer moral things because I'm conditioned to do that by culture and somewhat by biology."

If thats not enough, we could add a preamble sentence to my statement that says: "There are moral things". But it seems redundant to me.
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship

Nope
 
Upvote 0

Astrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
11,052
3,696
40
Hong Kong
✟188,696.00
Country
Hong Kong
Gender
Female
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship

The ish is too complex and subtle for easy formulas definitions
and sets of rules, much less " absolutes".
 
Reactions: durangodawood
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,796
7,250
63
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,152,579.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see how the Universe could have moral laws. (It has what we might euphemistically call "physical laws", but nothing about the strong nuclear force (for example) implies anything about morality.
Questioning the nature of morality (as in the OP) presumes the existence of objective morality.
 
Reactions: Tanj
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
28,105
19,719
Colorado
✟549,821.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Questioning the nature of morality (as in the OP) presumes the existence of objective morality.
Depends what you mean by objective morality.

To me its enough to say that morality is objectively a feature of human culture.

It doesnt have to be some rules "out there" in the universe or in the mind of an eternal being.
 
Reactions: Chriliman
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

I march with Sherman
Mar 11, 2017
22,729
16,996
55
USA
✟429,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Questioning the nature of morality (as in the OP) presumes the existence of objective morality.

Humans certainly have something we call "morality". Understanding the nature of the thing does not require it to be objective. (There is a 5 bazillion post thread about this.)
 
Upvote 0