Euthyphro's Dilemma (for atheists)

[Moral Orel]

Euthypro's Dilemma, now for ATHEISTS!
(agnostics too)

Just pick the poll answer that is true. Simple as that. Leave comments explaining your choice if you like.

This is not an apologetic topic. For the sake of this discussion, it will be assumed that God(s) do not exist and never have. Any discussion of how God would answer this poll will be considered off topic.

 

[Shemjaza]

There are lots of things that I prefer that are not the ideal moral choice.

I like to live up to my big ticket moral beliefs... but I'm certainly not perfect with the small scale acts of self indulgence, cowardice and laziness.

 

[Sabertooth]

Even without acknowledging God, "morality," by definition, can only exist in a universe that contains Natural Law.
Such law must transcend public & personal opinion.
The best that humans could do is to accurately ascertain its tenets rather than invent them.

If there is no Natural Law, there is no morality.

B.C., the Golden Rule seemed to be the most intuitive to me.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Even without acknowledging God, "morality," by definition, can only exist in a universe that contains Natural Law.
Such law must transcend public & personal opinion.
The best that humans could do is to accurately ascertain its tenets rather than invent them.

If there is no Natural Law, there is no morality.

B.C., the Golden Rule seemed to be the most intuitive to me.

Could you clarify what you mean by "Natural Law"?

 

[Tanj]

Option C: Nothing I prefer has its preference level altered by my consideration of its "morality".

 

[Moral Orel]

Option C: Nothing I prefer has its preference level altered by my consideration of its "morality".

Uh-oh! We got our first attempt to split the horns!

So lemme ask... Think of what you would consider the most heinous thing you would say "is immoral". Then think of the most pleasant moral thing you would say "is moral". You don't need to tell me what they are. You have no preference for which one you would like to occur? Either is fine?

 

[Tanj]

Uh-oh! We got our first attempt to split the horns!

Wait..there's horns?

So lemme ask... Think of what you would consider the most heinous thing you would say "is immoral". Then think of the most pleasant moral thing you would say "is moral". You don't need to tell me what they are. You have not preference for which one you would like to occur? Either is fine.

My preference for which one I would prefer occur would be based on the heinosity or pleasantness, not the morality. Perhaps you should have asked about the most heinous thing that is moral, vs pleasant immoral thing.

 

[Moral Orel]

Wait..there's horns?

Just some of the old leftover terminology of "dilemmas".

My preference for which one I would prefer occur would be based on the heinosity or pleasantness, not the morality. Perhaps you should have asked about the most heinous thing that is moral, vs pleasant immoral thing.

Okay, so are you of the sort that something either is moral or is immoral or is amoral; there are no levels? For instance, if two things are immoral, neither is "more" immoral than the other?

Either way, I'll ask this.

Think of a moral thing. Would you prefer that it occur, or that it not occur?

Think of an immoral thing. Would you prefer that it occur or not occur?

 

[Tanj]

Okay, so are you of the sort that something either is moral or is immoral or is amoral; there are no levels? For instance, if two things are immoral, neither is "more" immoral than the other?

No, but as I said the first time around, it doesn't factor into my preference. To rephrase the only initial option that makes a bit of sense

Some things which I prefer, happen to also be moral

Either way, I'll ask this.
Think of a moral thing. Would you prefer that it occur, or that it not occur?

Think of an immoral thing. Would you prefer that it occur or not occur?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time assigning morality to the stuff I do. I give ~ $500/month to variious charities, that's probably moral, right? I could afford to push it to $1000 but wont because I prefer to save/spend that money on myself. Is there a morality in there?

i like to play my PS5.
I enjoy going to fancy restaurants.
In two days I am flying up to my father in laws 80th birthday even though I'd rather be almost anywhere else.

No idea where the morality is in any of this.

 

[Moral Orel]

Honestly, I'm having a hard time assigning morality to the stuff I do.

It doesn't have to be stuff you do.

Would you prefer that people murder other people more often or less often?

Would you prefer that people volunteer at charities more often or less often?

 

[Tanj]

It doesn't have to be stuff you do.

Would you prefer that people murder other people more often or less often?

Would you prefer that people volunteer at charities more often or less often?

Less, but given it's one of the few laws baked into the existence of cilvilsation and thus genetically hard wired, not a good example.

Don't care about the volunteering thing, one way or the other.

 

[Sabertooth]

Could you clarify what you mean by "Natural Law"?

A hypothetical system of objective morality.

 

[Moral Orel]

Less, but given it's one of the few laws baked into the existence of cilvilsation and thus genetically hard wired, not a good example.

I don't see what's wrong with it as an example. You believe it is immoral, you prefer less of it.

Can you think of any counterexamples? Something you would definitely say is immoral, but you wouldn't care if it happened more or less in the world.

 

[Tanj]

I don't see what's wrong with it as an example. You believe it is immoral, you prefer less of it.

Without the concept of illegal killing being wrong you wouldn't be sitting there at the other end of a computer link asking me the question. It's like asking would I choose to feel fear if someone tried to shoot me. It's not a choice.

Can you think of any counterexamples? Something you would definitely say is immoral, but you wouldn't care if it happened more or less in the world.

Sure can. But I don't feel like being banned from CF at the moment, so pass.

 

[SkyWriting]

Wait..there's horns?

Sure.

 

[Moral Orel]

Without the concept of illegal killing being wrong you wouldn't be sitting there at the other end of a computer link asking me the question. It's like asking would I choose to feel fear if someone tried to shoot me. It's not a choice.

Preferences aren't choices.

If you enjoy an experience with something, then you like it. If you have a bad experience with something, then you dislike it. You prefer things you like over things you dislike. You can make educated inferences about whether you will or won't like things you haven't experienced based on similarities with things you have experienced. That's all it is. You don't choose what you like or dislike either, really.

It's that simple. Maybe you're over thinking this.

Sure can. But I don't feel like being banned from CF at the moment, so pass.

Will you tell me in a PM just to satisfy my curiosity? I won't carry a conversation there, but I'd still like to know.

 

[Tanj]

Preferences aren't choices.

If you enjoy an experience with something, then you like it. If you have a bad experience with something, then you dislike it. You prefer things you like over things you dislike. You can make educated inferences about whether you will or won't like things you haven't experienced based on similarities with things you have experienced. That's all it is. You don't choose what you like or dislike either, really.

It's that simple. Maybe you're over thinking this.

I still don't ascribe morality to my preferences. Perhaps you could give some examples of the morality of your preferences.

 

[Moral Orel]

I still don't ascribe morality to my preferences.

Huh? I think this means you'd never pick option 2. But you seem to be saying that you would pick option one, except that there isn't an overlap of your preferences with what you deem moral. Which is weird.

Perhaps you could give some examples of the morality of your preferences.

I'd prefer not to be murdered. I'd prefer not to be raped. I'd prefer not to be assaulted. I'd prefer not to be robbed. I'd prefer that people be polite rather than rude to me. I'd prefer none of these things happen to people I care about. I'd prefer none of these things happen to anyone I don't hate, really. Butterfly effect, and all that. I prefer that other folk I encounter be happy, so I prefer people have stuff they like happen to them, and not have stuff they dislike happen to them. None of these preferences make any morals, but that's not the point.

It seems to me, if I'm reading you right, you believe there are moral things and immoral things, but it doesn't make you feel anything if they happen or not unless they're really heinous. Which again, is weird.

 

[SkyWriting]

No idea where the morality is in any of this.

Morality is if you choose to ignore your father or not.
Or shoot him or not.

 

[Tanj]

I'd prefer not to be murdered. I'd prefer not to be raped. I'd prefer not to be assaulted. I'd prefer not to be robbed. I'd prefer that people be polite rather than rude to me. I'd prefer none of these things happen to people I care about. I'd prefer none of these things happen to anyone I don't hate, really. Butterfly effect, and all that. I prefer that other folk I encounter be happy, so I prefer people have stuff they like happen to them, and not have stuff they dislike happen to them. None of these preferences make any morals, but that's not the point.

It seems to me, if I'm reading you right, you believe there are moral things and immoral things, but it doesn't make you feel anything if they happen or not unless they're really heinous. Which again, is weird.

You've narrowed down on and iterating over subsets of the same thing in the first half, and making really vague statements in the second. Rape and murder are forms of assault.

"You prefer people not have stuff they dislike happen to them."
What about an alcoholic forced into rehab?
Someone going to jail for a crime they committed?

What if "what makes me happy" is throwing rocks at old ladies?

I think you have described a naive form of hedonism (which is great I'm a hedonist), how do you resolve the tension between individual and collective good (which I think you are terming "moral").