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Euthyphro Dilemma Easily Solved

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Tree of Life, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    What does it mean to be "the foundation of justice"? And why do you call it "God's justice"? Are there different kinds of justice?

    I know how responses can get lost when you're getting swamped by them, so this is just a friendly reminder of my questions.
     
  2. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    Apart from that time he sent the bears to kill the kids. Unless killing those is is a subset of good.
     
  3. InterestedAtheist

    InterestedAtheist Veteran

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    If you cannot judge something, then you know nothing about it. This is not to use the word judging in the sense of sentencing or condemning, but simply in the sense of forming an opinion about something - as in, "I judge her to be a good person."
    The problem is, you have formed an opinion about God. Your opinion is that He is the foundation of all morality. Yet your definition of morality is "in accordance with God's character."
    This means that when you say God is being moral, you are saying nothing more than "God is acting in accordance with His nature." Which tells us nothing at all, as it is a tautology. I'm afraid that, far from having left Euthyphro's Dilemma behind, you are still firmly stuck on it. Saying that God's character determine what good is means that whatever God's character was would be good. If God's character were what we call evil, it would be good. What would you do, say "God wouldn't be evil?" But how could you do that if you lacked an external standard to measure goodness by?
    Sure. But the problem is, your standard is tautological. It is saying that "God's character is God's character," and therefore cannot be used to make a judgement of any kind at all. As a measuring stick, it is useless.
    It's like a blank ruler on which is written, "This ruler can be used to measure (unidentifiable unit). The length of an (unidentifiable unit) is 1 (unidentifiable unit) long."
    But this doesn't help you. You're the one who claimed that you could answer Euthyphro's Dilemma. Counter-claiming that others do not have a reliable foundation for their morality either doesn't help your case.
    (I do have a reliable basis for my morality, as it happens, but I'd like to stay on topic).
     
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  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    I disagree. I'm going to have to say that the Laws of the O.T. aren't "absolute"; only God Himself -- in His Full Trinitarian Being -- is Absolute.
     
  5. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    How is it that any of us can objectively ask "what makes God good"?

    If we each just take a moment to think about our limited situation in this Reality we all live it, we have to admit to ourselves that our OWN views on morality and our respective choice of an ethical system involves what we each think makes-up "the value of the Good." And in this daily process of human evaluation, we find that our own moral views are mostly subjective with only the thinnest slices of common objectivity running through them.

    And if this is true, we all need to take a step back in reconsideration so as to avoid being too assured of our own moral views, even those that we think apply to the Biblical concept of God.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What would be the purpose of creating a being with no free will ? God is not a puppet master. He desires to have a relationship with us. This is how it was from the beginning. He walked with Adam until he fell from grace. Jesus Christ of Nazareth restored grace, the Holy Spirit, once lost through Adam. We still have free will but now we have an advocate who once again walks with us daily.
     
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  7. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    His standards can be judged by mine. My standard of well being is the the best standard for morals in my opinion. Gods morals do not always advance my moral goal of well being for all.

    I come to my conclusion on moral goals by reason, you have not provided any good evidence that what your moral standard is based on even exists. Your standard is might makes right. You then have to believe that slavery as ordered by god in the Bible was good at that time. My standard does not allow for that.
     
  8. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    no, we must ask if our moral standards are good. If I find a better standard than well being I will change to that. If I never question my standard how can I improve it!
     
  9. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    just because we don’t have all the answers does not mean we should not have a moral standard. When you can show that gods moral standard is better than well being for all then I will change my standard. My standard does not allow for slavery, genocide, killing of children etc. in the situations that god allows them. When you can show god exists and his moral standard is better than mine then I will adopt gods moral system.
     
  10. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    He does not want a relationship. He wants worship. What if I told my wife be in a relationship with me or you will die? Is that a loving relationship? Why not just me a good and loving god and show us this, then most would decide to be in a relationship.
     
  11. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sure how you can come to that conclusion considering your position. Thanks for engaging.
     
  12. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I come to that conclusion by reading and studying the Bible. I understand why you want to dismiss me and not talk about it.
     
  13. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    I didn't asked you to change your standard, did I? My personal standard doesn't allow for slavery, genocide, killing of children, etc. either. Nor does my personal standard allow for racism, eugenics, nor abortion for that matter.

    But regardless of what your standard is, I'd think that anyone who likes the song, "After Forever" can't be all bad anyway. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  14. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for understanding. Blessings.
     
  15. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I never thought you did ask me. The fact is I want the best moral standard there is. If you’d is better than mine then I will want to change my standard.

    Your moral standard then is not derived from god of the Bible? FYI, my morals do not allow for racism, eugenics or abortion either.
     
  16. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    No, my 'moral standard' in informed by---rather than derived from---the Bible. And my moral standard, as much as it has continued to grow, expand, become clarified and educated over the last three decades, isn't going to necessarily match that of other Christians (or even Secular Humanist for that matter) simply because I'm ... a Christian.

    And the World can just attempt to deal with that as I turn over each of its respective attempts to create, denote and articulate morality for everyone else ! :cool:
     
  17. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Then why is maximizing well being for all not the best standard for morality?

    how does the Bible inform your morality?
     
  18. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    The notion of "well being" is all fine and dandy, and it may be a good place to start in our mutual consideration of what could make for human flourishing, but problems arise in teasing out the semantics and to what those semantics express about certain notions that may or may not function in human social reality.

    It's simply one source that plays a role in my overall, ongoing educational process of discerning what may be actually socially and psychologically functional in human society.

    Since the bible doesn't address every moral situation or dilemma known to man that any one human being may encounter in life, then we'll need other sources by which to consider and reconsider what is 'truly best and real' on a social level. This is one reason we human beings have developed diverse disciplinary studies like Business Ethics and Bio-medical Ethics within the field of Ethics and Moral studies, along with other fields of study like Philosophy of Law.

    As a Philosopher, I'm going to do my best to be up on, or ready to learn about, moral issues that affect any one of us, and as a person who values Christianity, the essential moral values of Jesus Christ will inform, temper and direct my ongoing moral decisions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  19. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    What are the problems?

    Then how do you determine what is moral in a situation? How have you determined that slavery in wrong for example?
     
  20. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

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    Essentially, the main problem is in defining the term in a way that doesn't just fall into some invalid shallowness and malleability that is typical of mental concepts found in pop psychology.

    There isn't a formula for 'figuring out' that any one situation or social problem is right or wrong. But in the case of slavery, it was fairly easy to come to an understand that owning and abusing another person is not only a cruel thing to do, but also one that doesn't lend itself to functional and healthy social lives among our fellow human beings.

    In my own case, I suppose that seeing the Charlton Heston movie, The Ten Commandments, had something to do with sensitizing me at a very young age against the idea of slavery. I didn't learn it at any church as far as I remember. And those lessons I absorbed later in the 4th and 5th grades about Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglas, and the rest of Antebellum slavery in the U.S. reinforced this.
     
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