Euthanasia

[Mling]

Merlin, the way you are talking about this suggests that you...know what you are talking about. Under what conditions have you used this, and how did it help?

 

[Merlin]

No, I'm simply putting it in a differently light, albeit one you're loathe to discuss because it makes your arguments look ridiculous.

The discussion is about euthasia.
Especially for so-called intractable types of pain.

I mean this nicely - not every English word will sustain an "ing" ending. Cancer and pain are not verbs, and can't be used as such. (Nouns don't get "ing" endings.)

Respectfully, if you are doing something, like cancering, then it makes perfect sense to add an -ing suffix

You keep claiming it's possible to simply not experience pain. Here you claim you have the ability to teach this. Would I be wrong to guess that you're actually affiliated with the website you linked earlier that touts the ability to teach people exactly what you're talking about?

I am not affiliated with that website.
Nor do I offer any product to anyone.

I said no such thing, and I'll appreciate it if you refrain from insulting me. I said that I thought it was cruel to saddle someone you love with a huge debt. Maybe you think you're worth ruining the rest of someone else's life. I, on the other hand, do not value my life so highly that I will ruin someone else's simply to gain a few more hours, days, months, or even years.

Yes, I value life above money/debt.

See, I'm not the one being materialistic. I'm the one saying that my life is not for sale. I'm the one saying that no amount of money is worth exchanging for more or less life. I'm the one saying that I do not value my life over the burdens of others.

But you do put a price on life.
"I, on the other hand, do not value my life so highly that I will ruin someone else's simply to gain a few more hours, days, months, or even years."

As I said before, kindly stop being insulting. And no, you're using a strawman argument again - it doesn't "justify the slaughter of about 90% of the world's population".

About 90% of the world's population is impoverished far beyond the amount you express concern about when pricing the value of a human life.

You're not honestly going to try to argue that there's no money in avoiding pain, are you?

The question is who is willing to pay for such research?

 

[Merlin]

Merlin, the way you are talking about this suggests that you...know what you are talking about. Under what conditions have you used this, and how did it help?

For myself, only for minor pains (praise God) no surgery.
But I do teach the methods for burn victims.
I also teach how to stop cancering and such.

 

[TheMissus]

So, if you doubt, don't take their training.

No worries. I won't.

I know of many who teach this.

www.nolaborpain.com
It's valid.
Have you contacted them?
Or do you just blindly accuse?

Do your other friends promise something intentionally vague as well? The wording is not by accident. The validity must be called into question by merit of intentional vagueness. If it doesn't appear to be remotely credible, chances are that it isn't.

Why would I contact them? Should I expect that they would provide the lessons for free so I may better understand if what they claim is feasible?

Seems like there's just as much profit to be made from the "natural" methods as there is from the peer-reviewed medical methods. If you're going to make an issue of the medical community making money, you shouldn't be advocating the "pain-free" methods either.

 

[Mling]

Ok, I can see how meditation might work for burn victims, if they are already burned, and healing. However...

I also teach how to stop cancering and such.

Care to give any indication of how this works? You keep talking about it, but haven't given any explanation for what this entails or how to go about it. If you can cure cancer, then, say, growing back a little flap of muscle should be easy enough--so what should I do to close up my Ventricular-septal defect?

 

[Merlin]

No worries. I won't.

Do your other friends promise something intentionally vague as well?

I don't claim friendship.

If you're going to make an issue of the medical community making money,

I don't have any problem with anyone money making.

you shouldn't be advocating the "pain-free" methods either.

Pain-free implies pain-freedom.

 

[TheMissus]

You didn't actually respond to me. You simply quoted me out of context and avoided answering the questions.

How do you stop the spreading of cancer? How do you repair an organ that's been destroyed by cancer?

 

[Merlin]

Ok, I can see how meditation might work for burn victims, if they are already burned, and healing. However...

I don't teach meditation.
3rd degree burns and deeper don't lend themselves readily to meditation for pain relief.

Care to give any indication of how this works? You keep talking about it, but haven't given any explanation for what this entails or how to go about it.

Sure.
Healing comes from the mind.
A doctor may cut , burn or irradiate the body, but healing comes from within the mind-body.
Just as an MD may set a broken bone in place and immobilise it, the actual healing comes from within.

I teach the patient how to utilise the resources from within themselves.

If you can cure cancer, then, say, growing back a little flap of muscle should be easy enough--so what should I do to close up my Ventricular-septal defect?

I can't diagnose across a webboard.

 

[Mling]

I teach the patient how to utilise the resources from within themselves.

A phrase which sounds nice, while granting abosolutely no information. So, I'll ask again, what is it that you, or the patient, actually do. What resources are you actually talking about, and how does one utilize them.

I can't diagnose across a webboard.

I didn't ask you to diagnose. It was diagnosed when I was a baby--ventricular septal defect. That is the diagnosis. You claim you have devoted large chunks of time to teaching people how to heal themselves, once a diagnosis has been made. It has been made, so, I'm asking, how do I heal?

 

[Konkurrent]

The discussion is about euthasia.
Especially for so-called intractable types of pain.

You're ignoring my point entirely. When someone has nothing to look forward to except extreme pain and staggering medical expense they should have the right to choose the manner of their last days.

Furthermore, they should have the right to opt to not use any medical techniques - including the ones you vaguely reference - if they so wish.

Or do you argue that Jehovah's Witnesses should be forced to undergo invasive medical proceedures to prolong their lives?

Respectfully, if you are doing something, like cancering, then it makes perfect sense to add an -ing suffix

No one is "cancering". It is not a verb. You cannot cancer. Is this sinking in? Do you realize how discrediting it is to your argument to claim on the one hand to have knowledge that trumps medical science while on the other hand you're misusing basic terminology? A person can have cancer. If cancer is spreading and/or getting worse it is called "malignant". Alternately, people say "the cancer is getting worse and/or spreading". It's not complicated.

You've continuously expressed faulty concepts of the nature of cancer. It inevitably raises the question of whether or not you even know what you're talking about.

I wouldn't presume to speculate the actual truth behind it, I'm merely pointing out the damage you're doing to your own argument.

I am not affiliated with that website.
Nor do I offer any product to anyone.

But you do offer a product. You've repeatedly said you could teach this technique to other people.

Yes, I value life above money/debt.

As do I. I do not, however, value my life above other people's lives, money, or debt. If I were held for ransom I would be displeased if someone paid the ransom. My life has no value, thus assigning one to it is offensive.

By purchasing my life you devalue it.

But you do put a price on life.
"I, on the other hand, do not value my life so highly that I will ruin someone else's simply to gain a few more hours, days, months, or even years."

No, this is a refusal to assign it a price. If you think otherwise, name the price I'm putting on my life.

About 90% of the world's population is impoverished far beyond the amount you express concern about when pricing the value of a human life.

WRONG. 90% of the world's population is not in debt to the tune of a few hundred thousand dollars. You, like many people, don't seem to understand the difference between simply being poor and being massively in debt.

It is abominally irresponsible to burden your survivors. There is absolutely no difference between requiring someone else to pay for your health and stealing money from them. You are taking something from them without giving them a choice in the matter.

Besides, it's not the monetary value specifically that's the issue. It's the negative impact on those who survive you created by the massive debt. Exercise a little empathy and try to imagine what it is like to live under a debt you have no hope of ever repaying. To struggle under a yoke you cannot lift.

Who are you to put that yoke upon someone you claim to love?

The question is who is willing to pay for such research?

Yeah, I see what you mean. There just isn't any money for developing new ways to counteract pain. If there were we'd have painkillers on the shelves in pharmacies instead of having to rely on a few slugs of whiskey and a roll of leather to bite down on.




Honestly, how hard was it to see that coming?

 

[Vylo]

Restricted for.

Between 3 parties - The patient, The doctor, and The family, 2 must agree before it can be performed. The patient takes priority (must be asked first), unless incapacitated. It must be in writing.

 

[Mling]

No one is "cancering". It is not a verb. You cannot cancer. Is this sinking in? Do you realize how discrediting it is to your argument to claim on the one hand to have knowledge that trumps medical science while on the other hand you're misusing basic terminology? A person can have cancer. If cancer is spreading and/or getting worse it is called "malignant". Alternately, people say "the cancer is getting worse and/or spreading". It's not complicated.

She hasn't really spelled out the idea, but I get what she's saying (heard about it in a psych class once.) It's the idea that everything is a choice, and nothing is every inflicted on a person. You are not depressed--you are depress-ing. You are creating depression for some reason (many would say, in a misguided attempt to solve a problem. Say, you are lonely, and you are trying to get attention, so you depress yourself, or develop some other problem). So, you have not actually developed cancer, you are cancering--creating the disease with your unconcious will. You are not getting stabbed in the chest by a sting-ray and having toxins depositted directly into your heart--you are "impaling" and "poisoning" and once you learn how to stop impaling and poisoning, you can recover. I guess the trick is to learn real fast.

 

[Merlin]

A phrase which sounds nice, while granting abosolutely no information. So, I'll ask again, what is it that you, or the patient, actually do. What resources are you actually talking about, and how does one utilize them.

Your right.
I cannot offer in depth training here, any more that I could describe the specific of a corrective surgical procedure.

I didn't ask you to diagnose. It was diagnosed when I was a baby--ventricular septal defect. That is the diagnosis. You claim you have devoted large chunks of time to teaching people how to heal themselves, once a diagnosis has been made. It has been made, so, I'm asking, how do I heal?

Respectfully,
That's only the diagnosis of a symptom.

 

[Mling]

Ok, I understand the concept of the heart murmer being a symptom, but that raises another question--I was born with it, as was my mother, and her father. Do you deny the role of genetics, here, or were we all born with weak/skewed or otherwise flawed wills/minds, or however you would phrase it? Is that why my clavical broke during birth also? The umbilical cord wrapped around my shoulder was a symptom of my inner problems?

I cannot offer in depth training here, any more that I could describe the specific of a corrective surgical procedure.

Oh, sure you couldn't give a thorough, in-depth accound of what a corrective surgery entails, but there are ways to dumb it down for lay-folk. "They remove the appendix," "they remove the lens, scrape out the cataracts and replace the lens" "You need to have the ligaments of that joint repaired, because they tore during the dislocation."

At this point, I would accept a single sentence, so long as that sentence means something--anything.

 

[Merlin]

You're ignoring my point entirely. When someone has nothing to look forward to except extreme pain and staggering medical expense they should have the right to choose the manner of their last days.

I disagree.

Furthermore, they should have the right to opt to not use any medical techniques - including the ones you vaguely reference - if they so wish.

Or do you argue that Jehovah's Witnesses should be forced to undergo invasive medical proceedures to prolong their lives?

I agree.
But euthanasia is an opt-in, not an opt-out.

No one is "cancering". It is not a verb. You cannot cancer. Is this sinking in? Do you realize how discrediting it is to your argument to claim on the one hand to have knowledge that trumps medical science while on the other hand you're misusing basic terminology? A person can have cancer. If cancer is spreading and/or getting worse it is called "malignant". Alternately, people say "the cancer is getting worse and/or spreading". It's not complicated.

You may use those words if you wish
Cancering is an activity which one can learn to stop.

You've continuously expressed faulty concepts of the nature of cancer. It inevitably raises the question of whether or not you even know what you're talking about.

Obviously, a different perspective.

But you do offer a product. You've repeatedly said you could teach this technique to other people.

I do not here/now offer any product.

WRONG. 90% of the world's population is not in debt to the tune of a few hundred thousand dollars. You, like many people, don't seem to understand the difference between simply being poor and being massively in debt.

Not much difference.
Many can not afford food.

Exercise a little empathy and try to imagine what it is like to live under a debt you have no hope of ever repaying. To struggle under a yoke you cannot lift.

Like the 90% i referred to?

Yeah, I see what you mean. There just isn't any money for developing new ways to counteract pain. If there were we'd have painkillers on the shelves in pharmacies instead of having to rely on a few slugs of whiskey and a roll of leather to bite down on.

You refer to pills, i don't

 

[Merlin]

Ok, I understand the concept of the heart murmer being a symptom, but that raises another question--I was born with it, as was my mother, and her father.

I'm not in a position to say across a webboard, especially if your doctors have found a specific gene.

Do you deny the role of genetics, here,

I'm not in a position to say across a webboard, especially if your doctors have found a specific gene.

Oh, sure you couldn't give a thorough, in-depth accound of what a corrective surgery entails, but there are ways to dumb it down for lay-folk. "They remove the appendix," "they remove the lens, scrape out the cataracts and replace the lens" "You need to have the ligaments of that joint repaired, because they tore during the dislocation."

At this point, I would accept a single sentence, so long as that sentence means something--anything.

I gave the dumbed down version.
You don't like the answer.

 

[Konkurrent]

She hasn't really spelled out the idea, but I get what she's saying (heard about it in a psych class once.) It's the idea that everything is a choice, and nothing is every inflicted on a person. You are not depressed--you are depress-ing. You are creating depression for some reason (many would say, in a misguided attempt to solve a problem. Say, you are lonely, and you are trying to get attention, so you depress yourself, or develop some other problem). So, you have not actually developed cancer, you are cancering--creating the disease with your unconcious will. You are not getting stabbed in the chest by a sting-ray and having toxins depositted directly into your heart--you are "impaling" and "poisoning" and once you learn how to stop impaling and poisoning, you can recover. I guess the trick is to learn real fast.

Wow. I thought they stopped making that kind of person before the industrial revolution. I didn't know they still existed.

I disagree.

That's your perogative. Unfortunately you don't seem able to support your side with more than vague languages and unproven promises.

I agree.
But euthanasia is an opt-in, not an opt-out.

So people should only have the right to choose what they don't want, not what they do? Who assigned you the power to make decisions about the scope of everyone else's right to make decisions?

You may use those words if you wish
Cancering is an activity which one can learn to stop.

Hypothetically speaking, could you learn to not die if someone shot you in the heart?

Obviously, a different perspective.

Understatement of the Year.

I do not here/now offer any product.

You keep saying that but it's still in conflict with what you've already said. I say again, you've repeatedly said you could teach this technique to other people. Are you now trying to deny you've not said what is quite visibly true?

Not much difference.
Many can not afford food.

So? What does food have to do with euthanasia? Are you just trying to distract everyone from your weak argument by saying "oh look how sad it is to be poor"?

Like the 90% i referred to?

Again, what's your point? Are you implying that being poor is the same as being terminally ill?

You refer to pills, i don't

A product that alleviates pain - whether in pill form, injection form, or magic voodoo mindset form is still a product that alleviates pain. If there's enough merit in a process to warrant investigation there will be research dollars offered to explore it.

Perhaps you're familiar with the old MK Ultra project? Seriously voodoo kind of stuff there, and it soaked up millions if not billions of research dollars. (Still does, but that's a different subject.)

 

[Konkurrent]

I gave the dumbed down version.
You don't like the answer.

I wonder... can you answer a question without being condescending?

 

[Harlan Norris]

I can't think how to phrase this without it sounding mean... but I'll give it my best (please note, this is for EXAMPLARY purposes, not with any malice intended)

I hope you or a close loved one gets a really nasty cancer, that is extremely painful, and robs them or you of all quality and dignity in life, and that you or your loved one spend many months laying helpless in wretched agony, bathed in your own blood, vomit and efluent, in a hospital bed away from home and family, deprived of any sort of real human interaction, just stinking, in pain, and helpless, with absolutely no chance of recovery. Because by denying others euthanasia as an option, this is exactly what you want OTHER people to go through.

OK, so I don't REALLY hope that you or anyone you know gets sick, but I'm trying to be confronting to knock you out of your rose tinted glurge frame of mind that other people's suffering should be prolonged because you wont consider the alternative.

I'll stick to my guns on this.Assisted suicide is actually murder and suicide.Make no mistake, there is nothing in the Bible that provides for either.Hell lasts forever. Earthly torment does not.

 

[Konkurrent]

I'll stick to my guns on this.Assisted suicide is actually murder and suicide.Make no mistake, there is nothing in the Bible that provides for either.Hell lasts forever. Earthly torment does not.

So is there a sin too big for Jesus to die for?