Euthanasia

[Spherical Time]

I'm pro-choice on this matter.

 

[Mling]

So, when I was eight, my grandfather developed severe lung cancer. A few years ago, my mother, talked about the events surrounding his death for the first time.

If memory serves, the doctor made a mistake and perscribed waaaay too much chemo. The lining of his stomach was eaten away and he would vomit uncontrollably for hours. The last time my mother was there with him, he called her into his room and asked what she thought of Dr. Kavorkian. She answered that she understood what he was doing and why, but thought he was going about it the wrong way. He asked her to o.d. him on his morphine. She refused, because, with two young children, she could not afford to go to prison. Disgusted, he sent her out of the room.

Later that day, he called my uncle in, and he came out crying.

A week or two later, he had another vomitting fit, and my grandmother took him to the hospital. She sat with him until his nurse suggested that she leave for a few minutes, get a sandwich or something. She did, and when she came back, 20 minutes later, he was dead. His death certificate says lung cancer.

What exactly happened? Nobody can tell. But it says something about my family's beliefs that we all have our suspicions, and we all responded to them with a blink and a nod.

Personally, my feelings about this are similar to my feelings on sex reassingment surgery. When the situation is absolutely desperate, occasionally, and rarely, it is necessary to ignore abstract notions of morality and just think "What does this person need?" Sometimes a person simply cannot live anymore. Is it right, wrong or grey to do it? I have no idea, but sometimes, I think it is just necessary.

 

[sk8Joyful]

So, when I was eight, my grandfather developed severe lung cancer.

If memory serves, the doctor made a mistake and perscribed waaaay too much chemo. The lining of his stomach was eaten away and he would vomit uncontrollably for hours.
A week or two later, he had another vomitting fit, and my grandmother took him to the hospital. She sat with him until his nurse suggested that she leave for a few minutes, get a sandwich or something. She did, and when she came back, 20 minutes later, he was dead. His death certificate says lung cancer.

What exactly happened? Nobody can tell. But it says something about my family's beliefs that we all have our suspicions

Sometimes a person simply cannot live anymore. Is it right, wrong or grey to do it? I have no idea, but sometimes, I think it is just necessary.

No agreement (re "necessary" in the context you used as an example), based on my work.

Annie

 

[Mling]

I should specify that, at this point, it was very clear that he was going to die very soon. Not trying to counter anybody, just clarifying the situation. This wasn't a case of "He's miserable right now;" it was "The rest of his life will be spent being tortured, and it probably won't be more than a week."

 

[sk8Joyful]

I should specify that, at this point,

it was very clear that he was going to die very soon.

This wasn't a case of "He's miserable right now;" it was

"The rest of his life... will be spent being tortured, and it probably won't be more than a week."

I am truely sorry your dear Grandpa was "tortured" (using medical-interventions).

I can empathize, for
they "tortured" my Dad, Aunt, Mom, & a Nephew - using abysmal (cancer) poisons , too.
What was that about the Geneva-convention, and *Humane-treatments*??
How come they treat innocent-civilians far worse, than POW's.

That's why, when they were gonna do the same-thing to me, I said: "NO way!! -
I'll allow *Jesus* to guide my self-healing. Thank you" - and I did of leukemia, in '82.

Since then, of many challenges (but cancer, for now) I've helped other Individuals, also self-heal...

Cheers!

Annie

 

[Mling]

Ok, the first half of this post seems facetious, and the second half seems serious...I'm not sure which way to take that...

 

[sk8Joyful]

Ok, the first half of this post seems facetious,

which specifically of the following, seems "facetious" - to *you*:

Annie: I am truely sorry your dear Grandpa was "tortured" (using medical-interventions).

I can empathize, for
they "tortured" my Dad, Aunt, Mom, & a Nephew - using abysmal (cancer) poisons , too.
What was that about the Geneva-convention, and *Humane-treatments*??
How come they treat innocent-civilians far worse, than POW's.

and the second half seems serious...I'm not sure which way to take that...

You don't know, How to "perceive/take" *what, specifically*? - of this:

Annie: That's why, when they were gonna do the same-thing to me, I said: "NO way!! -
I'll allow *Jesus* to guide my self-healing. Thank you" - and I did of leukemia, in '82.

Since then of many challenges (but cancer, for now) I've helped other Individuals, also self-heal...

Cheers!

 

[Asimov]

For or against?

Why?

Choosing to live is a fundamental right that we all should have. That means there must be a choice in the matter.

 

[Mling]

Re: sk8joyful

You're emphasising "tortured" and "poison", using the little "" face---generally a sign that the person is being sarcastic. Where you are on the "gentle teasing<------------->scathingly, horrifiedly mocking" spectrum isn't quite clear (darn the lack of intonation available via the internet).

The latter half--well, plenty of people reject modern medicine in favor of prayer, and that's what you were suggesting. Now that I've read back through some of your posts, and discovered you're a nurse, I'm thinking that weren't serious about that. Could have been, though, and if your were, I didn't want to be insulting by suggesting it was so ridiculous you must have been joking. I was thinking that somebody who was joking wouldn't have included as much detail, but then I wrote one up myself that was about twice that long, with a whole lot of detail, and was completely sarcastic.

 

[rainbowgirl18]

for

 

[wanderingone]

No agreement (re "necessary" in the context you used as an example), based on my work.

Annie

What work is that?

 

[sk8Joyful]

Re: sk8joyful

The latter half--well, plenty of people reject modern medicine, in favor of prayer, and that's what you were suggesting.

You mis-understood.

(not because of "Training as a nurse") - I am very greatful for Scientific-advances, allowing people to live longer... THANKs to:
1. Bacteriology
2. X-ray, and Casting
3. Blood-tranfusions, and Suturing, etc. - for any such *First-aid applications*, I remain thankful.

You're emphasising "tortured" and "poison", using the little "" face---generally a sign that the person is being sarcastic.
(Where you are on the "gentle teasing<------------->scathingly, horrifiedly mocking" spectrum isn't quite clear (darn the lack of intonation available via the internet)).

Are you aware?? that 9/10 of Drugs are, in fact, "poisons".

Just look inside a PDR (Physician's Desk Reference).
It says -
1. "in case of Accidental ingestion, call your 'POISON Control Center' - Why? do you think
and
2. Most often, after ingesting a poison - your body attempts to RID itself of it, by Vomiting, & Diarrhea. These 2 are the most common Side-effect of most all drugs ingested. Why? do you think
and
3. In WWI, against the enemy - they used "Mustard Gas", (a fatal poison) and the basis of
Cancer-drugs, from which are developed other "generations". Why? do you think
and
4. Most people (once they agree to have their organs (butchered)/Cut-out, from "surgery" - have
no means of replacing them; so - Why would a doctor deny a "patient" person,
increasingly more of their *GOD-blest?? Natural-resources*
and
5. have you, ever heard of Radiation-poisoning ?
Well those 3: "Poison ~ Cut ~ Burn" are used, against Cancer-sufferers; making them
suffer not only from their cancering-*process*; but further from these 3.

Also, are you aware that in the past 30 yrs, increasingly more lay-people, plus Medical-doctors have LEFT that 'profession' - along with "nutrition" -
in favor of *Healing-modalities* which ARE Successful

In choosing *not* to
"DIE from Cancer-treatment-related CAUSES" as millions have/do/will,
I was Blessed with LIVING...even *abundantly* as Jesus said.

Why deny us?? this *God-given Right*

Annie

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The distinction between "medicine" and "poison" is most often one of dosage. One aspirine may alleviate your headache and/or reduce the risk of a stroke - and a whole box may cause internal bleeding.

Furthermore, a medication that stabilizes a diseased heart may very well DEstabilize a healthy one.

As a former nurse, you should know that.

But then again, maybe not.

 

[belladonic-haze]

The distinction between "medicine" and "poison" is most often one of dosage. One aspirine may alleviate your headache and/or reduce the risk of a stroke - and a whole box may cause internal bleeding.

Furthermore, a medication that stabilizes a diseased heart may very well DEstabilize a healthy one.

As a former nurse, you should know that.

But then again, maybe not.

Yep, I have heartmedication that could kill a grown healthy man just like that. Yet this tiny little lady is eating them like m&m's.....Honestly they look like m&m's....

Even my cardiologist said that it was poison, and that I should never ever experiment with it. I use meds that not only lower the bloodpressure but also serve well as diuretics. I use anti coagulants that can cause internal bleeding. Mind you that I have to let my blood be tested every 4 weeks, to make sure that my blood values stay stable.

Medication is poison, yes...but that poison is saving my life.

But my heart will still loose it's pumping ability. Slowly, but effective. I am dying a little bit every day. And in ten years or so my heart will be in such a condition that I will need a heart transplantation and if I am lucky I get a new heart...if not I will slowly sufficate.....and there comes the pill that takes me home to God. And I will end my life if I am in such a horrible state. I also told my husband that if when I can only live with the help of life support, he has to help me....or let someone help me. I am NOT spending my life on machinery!

I must admit that you can't fix the border between a dignified life and the moment you want to step out. That is different for everybody. You sort of realize that there are always things that will make your life beautiful and worth living. My body is slowly going from bad to worse. I can't work anymore, I need a wheelchair for long long walks. Ten years ago I could walk all day and go bird watching with a filled back pack. That was my life, now I am glad I can watch the birdies in my garden....and as a biologist with love for birds that isn't easy to accept.

Yet I still feel my life has meaning. But if I will suffer from terrible pains or if my barin is damaged, they can end my life...because I am not afraid to die....I am afraid to be locked inside a body that doesn't work or causes me sorrow and grief.......I don't want to be living in the prison if I can realm the earth and go out there as a ghost....

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

When I first experienced what I'd call "the Divine", eleven years ago, something inside me changed: death lost its sting, for I had felt a universal sense of love and interconnectedness that assured me that nothing is ever lost in this amazing and expanding universe.

I didn't realize how deeply this had affected me until my grandmother died. We had been pretty close, so I had expected that I'd experience some grief - but I didn't. Neither before, nor at, nor after the funeral. The sense of loss that was once so closely connected to the notion of death had disappeared. If anything, I felt a sense of gratitude that she didn't have to suffer more, for the cancer was eating her up, and a slow and intensely painful demise was far more likely than the quick collapse that ended her life.
I almost felt guilty for my lack of sorrow back then, because I didn't quite grasp what had changed me.
I guess I didn't fully understand it intellectually until I started to work at a nursery home.

Still, I hope that you will receive a functional transplant, belladonnic-haze. Quantity may not be such an important factor, and death certainly is an integral and necessary part of life, but it'd still be nice if there was a chance for you to avoid it a little longer and escape a fate that calls for drastic measures.

 

[belladonic-haze]

When I first experienced what I'd call "the Divine", eleven years ago, something inside me changed: death lost its sting, for I had felt a universal sense of love and interconnectedness that assured me that nothing is ever lost in this amazing and expanding universe.

I didn't realize how deeply this had affected me until my grandmother died. We had been pretty close, so I had expected that I'd experience some grief - but I didn't. Neither before, nor at, nor after the funeral. The sense of loss that was once so closely connected to the notion of death had disappeared. If anything, I felt a sense of gratitude that she didn't have to suffer more, for the cancer was eating her up, and a slow and intensely painful demise was far more likely than the quick collapse that ended her life.
I almost felt guilty for my lack of sorrow back then, because I didn't quite grasp what had changed me.
I guess I didn't fully understand it intellectually until I started to work at a nursery home.

My sister is a nurse who wrote an essay about dying and that it was the choice of the patient. Like the woman with terminal lungcancer that wanted to smoke, but a nurse took here cigarretes away from her because it was not good for her. My sister still thinks that it is ridiculous to act like that and to not give the dying person the freedom to enjoy the ciggies...or whatever. She even read about a woman who refused treatment for her breatscancer. She made that choice about her body and I can only admire that strenght.

I am sorry your grandma had to suffer like that. My grandma suffered from Alzheimer and then broke her hip. She was a woman of the world, laughed and enjoyed life so much and she deteriorated so quickly. She was so confused. My mom was with her when she died and my grandmother saw my grandfather standing in the doorway. He was already death for more than 30 years. She had never remarried and she reached out to him and died.

We had stopped further treatment, except the pain treatment. She went finally home.

Still, I hope that you will receive a functional transplant, belladonnic-haze. Quantity may not be such an important factor, and death certainly is an integral and necessary part of life, but it'd still be nice if there was a chance for you to avoid it a little longer and escape a fate that calls for drastic measures.

Thanks . You're sweet. That is my hope as well. My cardiologist is a great woman who I trust completely so she will do the best she can within the scientific possibilities.

I enjoy life too much to let it slip away so easy! But I am glad I will have the change to live and die on my own terms........just the thought is enough to live as long as possible.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Yep,
Ten years ago I could walk all day and go bird watching with a filled back pack. That was my life, now I am glad I can watch the birdies in my garden....and as a biologist with love for birds that isn't easy to accept.

Yep,
I understand the 'broken bio-chemical machine' -model good; I was afterall "trained" in it. ~ and for First-aiding acute (emergency)-type contexts, like I said already, Medical-science has contributed outstanding advances.

Yet, having helped several dozen people, from various chronic-conditions self heal, I would be laughed outa town, by them - and rightly so, were I to go Visit with them again, and say "Geeze, ya better assume the sick stance again, because the medical-folks are upset by (reject) your Good-news"

Cheers!
Annie

 

[belladonic-haze]

Yep,
I understand the 'broken bio-chemical machine' -model good; I was afterall "trained" in it. ~ and for First-aiding acute (emergency)-type contexts, like I said already, Medical-science has contributed outstanding advances.

Yet, having helped several dozen people, from various chronic-conditions self heal, I would be laughed outa town, by them - and rightly so, were I to go Visit with them again, and say "Geeze, ya better assume the sick stance again, because the medical-folks are upset by (reject) your Good-news"

Cheers!
Annie

I dunno, chronic cardiomyopathy isn't something that self heals. My cardiologist would be instant famous all over the world and so would I if my heart was able to just beat on it's own again in the best way possible.......I was born with a heart disorder....it's genetic, ya know.....

Yes, I wish self healing was possible. I would have tried that 7 years ago....not 42 years ago..

 

[wanderingone]

Are you aware?? that 9/10 of Drugs are, in fact, "poisons".

Of course they are, it's a matter of using them in the right dose against the right enemy.

Just look inside a PDR (Physician's Desk Reference).
It says -
1. "in case of Accidental ingestion, call your 'POISON Control Center' - Why? do you think
and

while I'm too lazy to go over to the library here and grab the PDR I'm betting you are slightly misquoting- but in any case if you accidentally overdose, or take meds not meant for you obviously you need to call for help, and obviously accidental is not the same as taking meds intentionally as prescribed for your condition.

2. Most often, after ingesting a poison - your body attempts to RID itself of it, by Vomiting, & Diarrhea. These 2 are the most common Side-effect of most all drugs ingested. Why? do you think

I think sometimes you cause a little discomfort for the "greater good"

3. In WWI, against the enemy - they used "Mustard Gas", (a fatal poison) and the basis of
Cancer-drugs, from which are developed other "generations". Why? do you think

I think quite a few medical discoveries were made as a result of discovering that what destroys living things can sometimes be modified to destroy what we need to get rid of (like developing cancer)

4. Most people (once they agree to have their organs (butchered)/Cut-out, from "surgery" - have
no means of replacing them; so - Why would a doctor deny a "patient" person,
increasingly more of their *GOD-blest?? Natural-resources*

Why would I want to keep a cancer ridden body part if the cancer is going to keep spreading and getting rid of it can limit the damage and possibly save my life?

and
5. have you, ever heard of Radiation-poisoning ?
Well those 3: "Poison ~ Cut ~ Burn" are used, against Cancer-sufferers; making them
suffer not only from their cancering-*process*; but further from these 3.

Yes treatment for cancer can be terribly debilitating. My coworker had a hard time 2 years ago with the treatment, but has now been cancer free since, my cousin's treatment made him so very sick but he's been cancer free and healthy for 12 years now.

Also, are you aware that in the past 30 yrs, increasingly more lay-people, plus Medical-doctors have LEFT that 'profession' - along with "nutrition" -
in favor of *Healing-modalities* which ARE Successful

What I am aware of is many medical professionals who always have or who are now incorporating diverse methods of treatment.

In choosing *not* to
"DIE from Cancer-treatment-related CAUSES" as millions have/do/will,
I was Blessed with LIVING...even *abundantly* as Jesus said.

Why deny us?? this *God-given Right*

Annie

I'm glad you were able to "choose" not to die - I'd say the people I know who survived cancer also chose not to die by choosing to accept treatment. I'd also say that I should have the freedom to choose not only to refuse treatment, drastic measures and to sign DNR's but to end my own suffering should it be at the cause of a disease that cannot be treated with any prognosis of significant recovery.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I dunno,

I was born with a heart disorder....it's genetic, ya know.....

Yes, I wish self healing was possible. .

I'll get back to you, later

(been up all night)

Annie