Eucharistic Miracles

[concretecamper]

I saw a post in the Anglican forum where someone asked if there had been any documented Eucharistic Miracles. The thought was that if there were, it would help ecumenical relations with The Catholic Church and the Orthodox.

The answers the OP received where disappointing in that they were mostly "it wouldn't matter anyway". No one answered yes or no.

It got me to thinking, is there any Protestant denomination that believe in the Real Presence that has had a documented Eucharistic Miracle?

 

[PloverWing]

The trouble, in this and in the other thread, is that Eucharistic Miracles are a really odd thing to expect, ever.

The miracle of God's grace and presence coming among us -- that happens all the time. But I assume you mean phenomena like hosts becoming human flesh in a sense that holds up to scientific analysis.

In Catholic thought, as I understand it, the substance is transformed while the accidents remain the same. The presence of wheat is one of the accidents, so I would not expect that to be transformed into something that isn't wheat. Substance isn't measurable by scientific tests.

Anglicans are deliberately not specific about the exact form that Real Presence takes. But most commonly we expect God to be truly present in a spiritual form, which, again, would not cause the wheat to be transformed into something that isn't wheat.

Maybe if a host in an Anglican church was transformed into something non-wheat, that would cause some Catholics to think our Sacraments were valid. Maybe. But even if that happened, wouldn't it require a revision to Thomas' theory, since one of the accidents had been transformed?

So, all in all: Seeing lives transformed and nourished week by week through receiving Communion, that's something that matters to me. The other kind of Eucharistic Miracle, I'm going to need very thorough documentation for, because I'm skeptical of all of the reports of them.

 

[concretecamper]

The trouble, in this and in the other thread, is that Eucharistic Miracles are a really odd thing to expect, ever.

The miracle of God's grace and presence coming among us -- that happens all the time. But I assume you mean phenomena like hosts becoming human flesh in a sense that holds up to scientific analysis.

In Catholic thought, as I understand it, the substance is transformed while the accidents remain the same. The presence of wheat is one of the accidents, so I would not expect that to be transformed into something that isn't wheat. Substance isn't measurable by scientific tests.

Anglicans are deliberately not specific about the exact form that Real Presence takes. But most commonly we expect God to be truly present in a spiritual form, which, again, would not cause the wheat to be transformed into something that isn't wheat.

Maybe if a host in an Anglican church was transformed into something non-wheat, that would cause some Catholics to think our Sacraments were valid. Maybe. But even if that happened, wouldn't it require a revision to Thomas' theory, since one of the accidents had been transformed?

So, all in all: Seeing lives transformed and nourished week by week through receiving Communion, that's something that matters to me. The other kind of Eucharistic Miracle, I'm going to need very thorough documentation for, because I'm skeptical of all of the reports of them.

I'll take that as a no.

I really would like to know if someone could answer yes or no.

 

[Philip_B]

I'll take that as a no. I really would like to know if someone could answer yes or no.

Of course the Eucharist is a miracle in itself. I really like what Pope Francis wrote about the Eucharist in Laudate Si.

On the other hand for the Star Trek tragics we could say, 'It's life Jim, but not as we know it'

The truth that the Eucharist takes place both in time and beyond time, weekly, daily, whenever, for whatever purpose does not distract us from that truth. We recognise God's work here that we might more quickly recogise him in the world. Mother Theresa had much to say about this.

 

[disciple Clint]

I saw a post in the Anglican forum where someone asked if there had been any documented Eucharistic Miracles. The thought was that if there were, it would help ecumenical relations with The Catholic Church and the Orthodox.

The answers the OP received where disappointing in that they were mostly "it wouldn't matter anyway". No one answered yes or no.

It got me to thinking, is there any Protestant denomination that believe in the Real Presence that has had a documented Eucharistic Miracle?

well no because they do not believe in transubstantiation

 

[concretecamper]

well no because they do not believe in transubstantiation

but just because they don't believe in transubstantiation doesn't mean God could not perform a Eucharistic Miracle similar to Laciano.

 

[o_mlly]

The truth that the Eucharist takes place both in time and beyond time ...

Some philosophers and physicists have argued that what we experience as time is just an illusion, an artifact of our consciousness. In this view, the passage of time isn't real; the past and future already exist in their complete extent, the same way the entirety of space already exists.

We believe that at Eucharist the saving sacrifice of Christ Jesus on the Cross is made present during the words of consecration in a real manner. The miracle and mystery may be thought of as not the transubstantiation of bread into Christ's body but rather how our experience of Him is in eternity. In eternity, there is no past nor future. All moments of time in eternity are present. In eternity, the wheat that Christ consumed and metabolized into His body are one in being. In eternity, the wine that He drank is His blood.

I favor combining the reflections of John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and, soon to be Blessed, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. At Eucharist, what we experience in a moment is eternity: Christ's sacrifice, once and for all, is made present.

In reflecting on the Cana miracle, Chrysostom and Augustine note that in eternity the water is wine as all moments, past and future, in eternity are present. Sheen reflects on how in the natural order, the hierarchy of living things transforms the lower into higher forms in order that the lower might share life more abundantly. In the Eucharist, the bread and wine that the living Christ consumed, and in consuming transformed them into Himself, is made present to us as His body, blood, soul and divinity for us to consume that we might have life everlasting.

John Chrysostom (Homily 22 on John's Gospel) says,"But now to show that it is He who transmutes water in the vine plants, and who converts the rain by its passage through the root into wine, He effected that in a moment at the wedding which in the plant is long in doing."

In De Trinitate, Augustine says that miracles are the acceleration of events that occur in nature over time. Significantly, he begins his explanation by saying that God draws the rainwater through the roots to the branches of the vine and makes wine. Christ's changing of the water into wine at Cana is the same process done with "unusual speed" (De Trin. III, 5).

And Fulton J. Sheen, (Life of Christ) reflects on the Last Supper:

Everything in nature has to have communion in order to live; and through it what is lower is transformed into what is higher: chemical into plants, plants into animals, animals into man. And man? Should he not be elevated through communion with Him Who “came down” from heaven to make man a partaker of the Divine nature? …

When Our Lord, after He changed the bread and wine to His Body and Blood, told His Apostles to eat and drink, He was doing for the soul of man what food and drink do for the body. Unless the plants sacrifice themselves to being plucked up from the roots, they cannot nourish or commune with man. The sacrifice of what is lowest must precede communion with what is higher. First His death was mystically represented; then communion followed. The lower is transformed into the higher; chemicals into plants; plants into animals; chemicals, plants, and animals into man; and man into Christ by communion. Animals have life more abundantly than plants; man has life more abundantly than animals. He said that He came to give a life beyond the human. As the oxygen could not live the more abundant life of the plant, unless the plant came down to it, so neither could man share Divine Life unless Our Lord came down to give it.

 

[Bob Crowley]

It depends on what you mean by miracles. If you mean healing miracles along the lines of those performed by Christ, I doubt if there would be many other than hidden eg. someone healed of cancer.

But if you're talking about the wafer becoming flesh and blood, there have apparently been several.

There was an Australian journalist named Mike Willesee, who unfortunately died of cancer not so long ago. He was an atheist for a long time, but came back to the faith. He was a hard nosed journalist, but he dug up some interesting stuff on Catholic miracles eg. stigmata and eucharistic miracles.

Legendary journalist Mike Willesee returned to faith

Eucharistic Miracle | Reason To Believe

He initially turned against the church because of the way two priests attacked his father when he was still at school. I also believe one of the priests physically attacked him, but I'm not sure of that. But he came back to the Church in later life.

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/veteran-journalist-mike-willesee-dies/

Some priests, brothers and nuns have a lot to answer for. I remember an older gardening guru on ABC TV, who said he was educated in a Catholic school in England, but later migrated to Australia. They were treated so badly that on the day they left the school at the ripe old age of about 12 or 13 they stood outside and chanted "That's it with God!"

But then saints who have had visions of Hell have said they saw priests and nuns there, and bishops in some cases. They hadn't taken God seriously.

 

[Bob Crowley]

As an addendum, I wouldn't expect Protestants to experience Eucharistic miracles as in most cases they don't believe in the body and blood of Christ being present, or the Real Presence in the OP's post.

I'm not sure about Lutherans and Anglicans, as I think they're sort of half way between the Catholic belief and the purely symbolic Protestant belief.

But I'd be surprised if they experienced any Eucharistic miracles of the type Mike Willesee investigated in my post above.

 

[The Liturgist]

I saw a post in the Anglican forum where someone asked if there had been any documented Eucharistic Miracles. The thought was that if there were, it would help ecumenical relations with The Catholic Church and the Orthodox.

The answers the OP received where disappointing in that they were mostly "it wouldn't matter anyway". No one answered yes or no.

So the answer is actually yes: Log into Facebook

Basically, a Continuing Anglican Church in the Holy Catholic Church - Anglican Rite in Rogers, Arkansas, experienced a Eucharistic miracle in which the host became illuminated after consecration. This is a beautiful event which validates my belief in the importance of the Continuing Anglican movement, and the compatibility of Continuing Anglican churches of Anglo Catholic faith with Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, since some of them, like the Anglican Province of Christ the King, enumerate seven sacraments and have the sacramental and liturgical character of apostolic churches.

They separated, correctly, from the Episcopal Church USA in 1979, partially because of annoyance with the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, but for Anglo Catholics in the Episcopal Church, the main factor was the uncanonical decision to violate holy tradition and ordain women to the priesthood, an office historically never held by women and which according to the Apostle Paul women ought not to exercise. In the Church of England, an Anglo Catholic group called Forward in Faith has carved out a niche where this practice is not condoned, but in the Episcopal Church no such dissent was available nor were parishes free to continue using the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (some do, but it is technically against the rules, however, the Episcopal Church stopped enforcing liturgical conformity), whereas in the Church of England the 1662 BCP remains official, and the vastly inferior Common Worship is optional. Additionally several Anglo Catholic parishes use services from the English Missal, a 1917 translation of the Roman Missal. Missal Catholic parishes include St. Magnus the Martyr, which even conducted the mass in Latin in the early 20th century, and All Saints Margaret Street.

However the Continuing Anglican Churches, by breaking communion with Canterbury, have rejected the Elizabethan Settlement and the 39 Articles, and the result is that they are free of any ties to the Low Church movement or the various doctrines imposed by Cranmer and associates after the death of King Henry VIII, such as iconoclasm, the Real Physical Presence of Christ on the Altar, and the prohibition on seeking the intercession of the saints. I believe that this Eucharistic Miracle is a divine vindication of the abandonment of the doctrine of Cranmer and the Elizabethan Settlement, in favor of Patristic doctrine. This is further enhanced because to my knowledge no American edition of the Book of Common Prayer includes the “Black Rubric” and the 1928 BCP is highly Anglo Catholic.

 

[The Liturgist]

As an addendum, I wouldn't expect Protestants to experience Eucharistic miracles as in most cases they don't believe in the body and blood of Christ being present, or the Real Presence in the OP's post.

I'm not sure about Lutherans and Anglicans, as I think they're sort of half way between the Catholic belief and the purely symbolic Protestant belief.

But I'd be surprised if they experienced any Eucharistic miracles of the type Mike Willesee investigated in my post above.

Well get surprised, because they did, assuming we define Anglo Catholics as Protestants. I do, because they, like Lutheran Evangelical Catholics and St. Jan Hus, founder of what became the Unitas Fratrum, the Moravian Church, now venerated as a holy martyr in Eastern Orthodoxy, protest the doctrine of Papal Supremacy. And it was because of their refusal to accept this doctrine that the Eastern Orthodox were excommunicated by Rome.

 

[concretecamper]

Of course the Eucharist is a miracle in itself. I really like what Pope Francis wrote about the Eucharist in Laudate Si.

On the other hand for the Star Trek tragics we could say, 'It's life Jim, but not as we know it'

The truth that the Eucharist takes place both in time and beyond time, weekly, daily, whenever, for whatever purpose does not distract us from that truth. We recognise God's work here that we might more quickly recogise him in the world. Mother Theresa had much to say about this.

that is 2 no and 0 yes

 

[concretecamper]

So the answer is actually yes: Log into Facebook

Basically, a Continuing Anglican Church in the Holy Catholic Church - Anglican Rite in Rogers, Arkansas, experienced a Eucharistic miracle in which the host became illuminated after consecration. This is a beautiful event which validates my belief in the importance of the Continuing Anglican movement, and the compatibility of Continuing Anglican churches of Anglo Catholic faith with Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, since some of them, like the Anglican Province of Christ the King, enumerate seven sacraments and have the sacramental and liturgical character of apostolic churches.

They separated, correctly, from the Episcopal Church USA in 1979, partially because of annoyance with the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, but for Anglo Catholics in the Episcopal Church, the main factor was the uncanonical decision to violate holy tradition and ordain women to the priesthood, an office historically never held by women and which according to the Apostle Paul women ought not to exercise. In the Church of England, an Anglo Catholic group called Forward in Faith has carved out a niche where this practice is not condoned, but in the Episcopal Church no such dissent was available nor were parishes free to continue using the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (some do, but it is technically against the rules, however, the Episcopal Church stopped enforcing liturgical conformity), whereas in the Church of England the 1662 BCP remains official, and the vastly inferior Common Worship is optional. Additionally several Anglo Catholic parishes use services from the English Missal, a 1917 translation of the Roman Missal. Missal Catholic parishes include St. Magnus the Martyr, which even conducted the mass in Latin in the early 20th century, and All Saints Margaret Street.

However the Continuing Anglican Churches, by breaking communion with Canterbury, have rejected the Elizabethan Settlement and the 39 Articles, and the result is that they are free of any ties to the Low Church movement or the various doctrines imposed by Cranmer and associates after the death of King Henry VIII, such as iconoclasm, the Real Physical Presence of Christ on the Altar, and the prohibition on seeking the intercession of the saints. I believe that this Eucharistic Miracle is a divine vindication of the abandonment of the doctrine of Cranmer and the Elizabethan Settlement, in favor of Patristic doctrine. This is further enhanced because to my knowledge no American edition of the Book of Common Prayer includes the “Black Rubric” and the 1928 BCP is highly Anglo Catholic.

I don't have Facebook. Could you provide a different link?

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't have Facebook. Could you provide a different link?

File:Eucharistic Miracle at Corpus Christi Anglican Church.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Note the luminous Body of our Lord.

 

[fhansen]

well no because they do not believe in transubstantiation

That doctrine just seeks to explain the "how" of the Real Presence. One need not beleive in it in order to believe, as some Protestants do, that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.

 

[Eloy Craft]

but just because they don't believe in transubstantiation doesn't mean God could not perform a Eucharistic Miracle similar to Laciano.

Like Baptism. Beliefs vary but that isn't what validates it right?

 

[disciple Clint]

That doctrine just seeks to explain the "how" of the Real Presence. One need not beleive in it in order to believe, as some Protestants do, that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.

It would be impossible for me to speak for all the Protestant denominations and independents but I do not think that the major denominations believe that the Eucharist is actually transformed into true flesh and blood, I could be wrong but I believe that only Catholics believe that.

 

[Philip_B]

It would be impossible for me to speak for all the Protestant denominations and independents but I do not think that the major denominations believe that the Eucharist is actually transformed into true flesh and blood, I could be wrong but I believe that only Catholics believe that.

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

I am not sure what makes a 'major denomination', and I am not sure what you mean by 'actually transformed'.

I am pretty comfortable in assuming that Catholic and Independent Catholic traditions would not fall within the view you exress, neither Eastern Orthodoxy, nor Oriental Orthodoxy, nor the Church of East. Anglicans and Lutherans have much more nuanced views of the Eucharist, but would probably quibble with what you say without a deal more precision. All these Churches are comfortable to speak of 'Real Presence' though there may be some divergence in how that is understood. They account for arround 1.8 billion Christians of the 2.6 billion Christians in the world today.

I am pretty sure @The Liturgist could make a more detailed response.

 

[disciple Clint]

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

I am not sure what makes a 'major denomination', and I am not sure what you mean by 'actually transformed'.

I am pretty comfortable in assuming that Catholic and Independent Catholic traditions would not fall within the view you exress, neither Eastern Orthodoxy, nor Oriental Orthodoxy, nor the Church of East. Anglicans and Lutherans have much more nuanced views of the Eucharist, but would probably quibble with what you say without a deal more precision. All these Churches are comfortable to speak of 'Real Presence' though there may be some divergence in how that is understood. They account for arround 1.8 billion Christians of the 2.6 billion Christians in the world today.

I am pretty sure @The Liturgist could make a more detailed response.

View attachment 314902

Again only the Catholics as far as I know believe in Transubstantiation, that is the substance of the bread and wine actually change into the actual blood and flesh of Christ and are therefore no longer bread and wine in substance but only in accident.

 

[fhansen]

It would be impossible for me to speak for all the Protestant denominations and independents but I do not think that the major denominations believe that the Eucharist is actually transformed into true flesh and blood, I could be wrong but I believe that only Catholics believe that.

But I'm not sure there's much of a difference at the end of the day. The question addressed here is whether or not Jesus is really present in the host.