Ethnophyletism hypocrisy

[Not David]

So I hear a lot of criticism of "ethnophyletism" in a lot of Orthodox people as a criticism of nationalism, racism or whatever you can think about. Yet it seems like what Bulgaria was claiming was not wrong especially when Greeks were having the control of clergy and the language was in Greek too (the way the Bulgarians did it was wrong). So Constantinople organised a council to say ethnophyletism because of personal convinience.

However, it seems they were hypocritical since most of Constantinople's territory is not only in Istanbul but in other territories in Europe while conserving the Greek heritage.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's definitely something we gotta deal with nowadays.

 

[Not David]

Why is it wrong Father?

 

[ArmyMatt]

because in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. we are called to a royal nation that transcends ethnicity.

 

[All4Christ]

Ethnophyletism is wrong, no matter whether it is Bulgarians, Greeks, Americans or any other group. I’m thankful it was affirmed as heresy. As Father Matt said, though, we still have that to deal with today, albeit in different forms.

 

[All4Christ]

In the Christian Church, which is a spiritual communion, predestined by its Leader and Founder to contain all nations in one brotherhood in Christ, racism is alien and quite unthinkable. Indeed, if it is taken to mean the formation of special racial churches, each accepting all the members of its particular race, excluding all aliens and governed exclusively by pastors of its own race, as its adherents demand, racism is unheard of and unprecedented.

All the Christian churches founded in the early years of the faith were local and contained the Christians of a specific town or a specific locality, without racial distinction. They were thus usually named after the town or the country, not after the ethnic origin of their people.3

And further:

We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which ‘support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.’

The stance presented in the Council of 1872 is correct. The Diaspora has brought in many challenges with this, and we all need to focus on unity of our faith across every jurisdiction, ethnicity and nationality. We are to be God’s people, and not to be of this world. (Philippians 3:20-21)

 

[Not David]

Yet there is a difference between how the Greek Church and Russian Church worships each depending in their own culture. And the statement "there is no Greek not Jew" is ironic since the Christian Jews were assimilated into the Roman society yet Greek Christians were still able to be Greek Christians.

 

[All4Christ]

Yet there is a difference between how the Greek Church and Russian Church worships each depending in their own culture. And the statement "there is no Greek not Jew" is ironic since the Christian Jews were assimilated into the Roman society yet Greek Christians were still able to be Greek Christians.

Worshipping with a style based on a culture doesn’t equate to ethnophyletism. Encouraging people to worship with their culture of the country is actually a good thing, as it isn’t pushing the culture of the “mother” church. For example, the Inuits, Aleuts and other Alaskan people were able to integrate their culture into Orthodoxy. That is a good way to evangelize.

However, pushing people out who are not of the same ethnicity or forcing people to adopt a culture to be “Othodox” is not right. We shouldn’t have to be “Greek” or “Russian” or “Arabic” or any other ethnicity to be fully Orthodox. We shouldn’t be divided based on ethnic lines, especially in the same geographic area.

Often, people in the same territory often have similar culture. In the diaspora of Orthodoxy, however, there is a unique challenge of assimilation with immigrant churches and Orthodox Christians coming into the Church without “traditionally Orthodox” ethnic ties. In the United States of America specifically, we are a group of people from many diverse backgrounds, which adds to that challenge.

 

[Not David]

Worshipping with a style based on a culture doesn’t equate to ethnophyletism. Encouraging people to worship with their culture of the country is actually a good thing, as it isn’t pushing the culture of the “mother” church. For example, the Inuits, Aleuts and other Alaskan people were able to integrate their culture into Orthodoxy. That is a good way to evangelize.

However, pushing people out who are not of the same ethnicity or forcing people to adopt a culture to be “Othodox” is not right. We shouldn’t have to be “Greek” or “Russian” or “Arabic” or any other ethnicity to be fully Orthodox. We shouldn’t be divided based on ethnic lines, especially in the same geographic area.

Often, people in the same territory often have similar culture. In the diaspora of Orthodoxy, however, there is a unique challenge of assimilation with immigrant churches and Orthodox Christians coming into the Church without “traditionally Orthodox” ethnic ties. In the United States of America specifically, we are a group of people from many diverse backgrounds, which adds to that challenge.

Yeah, I don't believe you need to be of a specific ethnicity to be Orthodox, any ethnicity can become Orthodox.

Yet I have doubts about the claim of ethnophyletism as a heresy when the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe is separated based on Nationality: Serbs, Russians, Romanians, etc.

If it is supposedly a heresy, then most of Orthodox Christians are heretics.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yeah, I don't believe you need to be of a specific ethnicity to be Orthodox, any ethnicity can become Orthodox.

Yet I have doubts about the claim of ethnophyletism as a heresy when the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe is separated based on Nationality: Serbs, Russians, Romanians, etc.

If it is supposedly a heresy, then most of Orthodox Christians are heretics.

that's not ethnophyletism, that's just having a unique flavor based on culture.

 

[All4Christ]

Yeah, I don't believe you need to be of a specific ethnicity to be Orthodox, any ethnicity can become Orthodox.

Yet I have doubts about the claim of ethnophyletism as a heresy when the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe is separated based on Nationality: Serbs, Russians, Romanians, etc.

If it is supposedly a heresy, then most of Orthodox Christians are heretics.

That’s territory / geographic - such as the Serbian Church for Serbia, etc. Territory or geographic location is the standard thing for governance in Orthodox Churches.

However, in the 1870s, the Bulgarians weren’t allowing people who weren’t of Bulgarian ethnicity to join. If a Romanian moved to Greece, and the Greek Church said he wasn’t able to be a part of their Church because the person was ethnically Romanian, then they would absolutely be guilty of ethnophyletism.

That said, there are still times where ethnophyletism happens to perhaps a lesser degree.

 

[Not David]

Ok, so ethnophyletism is not allowing someone from other nationality to join your church?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok, so ethnophyletism is not allowing someone from other nationality to join your church?

as I gather, it's insisting that a particular nationality or culture is more Orthodox based on theology.

 

[Not David]

as I gather, it's insisting that a particular nationality or culture is more Orthodox based on theology.

What do you mean based on theology?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you mean based on theology?

you need to be Greek or Arab or Russian to be Orthodox, and that is a theological imperative.

 

[Not David]

you need to be Greek or Arab or Russian to be Orthodox, and that is a theological imperative.

Yes, I don't agree that you need to be ethnically of any of those groups to be Orthodox.

 

[Lukaris]

In America, I think, ethnic expression can be good or bad. As long as ethnicity does not malign Orthodox Christian faith & welcoming new followers, it is good.

Our Antiochian parish is over a century old, Americanized while retaining Syrian character also. I think this balance works to include any newcomer or Syrians recently exiled. Our priest is certainly approachable when it is time to kiss the Cross after Liturgy. We have pros & cons of course but there are no ethnic issues.

 

[Not David]

In America, I think, ethnic expression can be good or bad. As long as ethnicity does not malign Orthodox Christian faith & welcoming new followers, it is good.

Our Antiochian parish is over a century old, Americanized while retaining Syrian character also. I think this balance works to include any newcomer or Syrians recently exiled. Our priest is certainly approachable when it is time to kiss the Cross after Liturgy. We have pros & cons of course but there are no ethnic issues.

Well white Americans have taken over some Antiochian parishes that even there is barely any Arabs there (not sure if that is bad or good but I assume good since they are more converts lol).

That's good there is not ethnic conflicts even when there is an increase of ethnic conflicts in the US.

 

[Lukaris]

O

Well white Americans have taken over some Antiochian parishes that even there is barely any Arabs there (not sure if that is bad or good but I assume good since they are more converts lol).

That's good there is not ethnic conflicts even when there is an increase of ethnic conflicts in the US.

Most of us in our parish are of mixed ancestry (for ex. my dad, cradle Orthodox, was American of Syrian ancestry & some of my mom’s ancestors were American colonists). By the 1950s, there were boy & Girl Scout troops in our parish yet 2 months ago, we had a Syrian ethnic festival (the first in decades).

While I wish more people could become Orthodox, a few (like myself have (raised vaguely Protestant), a few Syrian Orthodox exiles, etc. keep our parish alive.

 

[RobNJ]

you need to be Greek or Arab or Russian to be Orthodox, and that is a theological imperative.

Not so much of a theological imperative, in my case... But when I was considering becoming Orthodox.. I asked 5 different people I know, of Greek ancestry, about joining the Greek Orthodox Church... All 5 (from 4 different congregations, in 2 different diocese), told me that if I wasn't Greek, or marrying into a Greek family, I'd be better off trying the OCA, or the Antiochians.. And in two of those cases, adding "....instead of The.. GREEK....Church"