Ethnic Israel and the church

[hindsey]

Ok, I am new to this subject, but it seems that lately it comes up a bit... It seems to me that there are in fact differences between God's dealing with the national Jews and with those that have born-again after the resurrection of Christ. So, I have questions:

#1) for DISPENSATIONALISTS: Other than the promise of the land of Palestine, what promises are there in the Old Testament given to Israel that the Church does not take part of.

#2) Those that believe that the Church has replaced Isarel, why do the 144,000 mentioned find themselves broken up by tribe of Israel? It seems to me that they are in fact Israelites in the flesh.

#3) Can somebody give me a clear definition of what implications there are by allowing OT Saints to be called part of the "Church"?

Thanks.

 

[Dave Taylor]

hindsey wrote:

#1) for DISPENSATIONALISTS: Other than the promise of the land of Palestine, what promises are there in the Old Testament given to Israel that the Church does not take part of.

Joshua 21:43,45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
2 Corinthians 1:19 "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him"

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

hindsey wrote:

#2) Those that believe that the Church has replaced Isarel, why do the 144,000 mentioned find themselves broken up by tribe of Israel? It seems to me that they are in fact Israelites in the flesh.

No one believes anyone has been replaced. All human beings are sinners, and all human beings are either born again and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and saved by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the atonement of their sins; or they are not. Those who are, belong to Christ and noone will cast them out....those who do not belong to Christ will be broken off and cast into the Fire.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "

Matthew 9:23 "And Jesus said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. "

I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
hindsey wrote:

#3) Can somebody give me a clear definition of what implications there are by allowing OT Saints to be called part of the "Church"?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. "

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Galatians3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Ephesians 3:21, 4:4 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Corinthians12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

2 Corinthians5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13 "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

[Tractor1]

Joshua 21:43,45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."

Your Scripture reference has no bearing on the ultimate fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Though choosing to walk in disobedience to the Lord does cause the loss of covenant blessing it never could cause its cancelation because its fulfillment depends on God alone. It makes little difference if the land was possessed at one time or not, as the Lord gave it as an everlasting possession.

"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gen. 13:15).

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,..." (Gen. 17:7).

"Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; and hath confirmed the same to Jacob for law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant" (1 Chron. 16:16-17, Ps. 105:9-10).

Scripture clearly declares the nature of the covenant.

Though Israel is not a believing nation today, once the Deliverer comes out of Sion, all Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:26) and possess all that God has promised forever.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Dave Taylor]

Biblical salvation (being redeemed, born again, forgiven, sins washed away, etc...) isn't national or by group....its individual....one individual at a time; by the foot of the cross.

Thousands of Jews have received salvation from Christ; thousands will continue to receive salvation from Christ until He returns in Glory on the clouds of Heaven....then all Israel will be saved.

Not by group salvation which is unbiblical; but when all the few and the chosen who are called by His name have come via the narrow gate until Life Everlasting via Christ one lost sinner at a time.

That is biblical salvation of the soul....from the heart of a man; not the group decisisons of a nation or government.

 

[Tractor1]

Biblical salvation (being redeemed, born again, forgiven, sins washed away, etc...) isn't national or by group....its individual....one individual at a time; by the foot of the cross.

Thousands of Jews have received salvation from Christ; thousands will continue to receive salvation from Christ until He returns in Glory on the clouds of Heaven....then all Israel will be saved.

Not by group salvation which is unbiblical; but when all the few and the chosen who are called by His name have come via the narrow gate until Life Everlasting via Christ one lost sinner at a time.

That is biblical salvation of the soul....from the heart of a man; not the group decisisons of a nation or government.

Scripture speaks of two elections, one is national (Deut. 7:6-8, Deut. 14:2), one individual (Eph. 1:4). In this dispensation God is calling out from among the Jew and Gentile individuals in formation of the Church, but Jehovah loves Israel with an everlasting love (Jer. 31:3), and in regard to her His gifts and calling are without repentance (Rom. 11:29).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Ebb]

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Hosea 2:23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
​

Here, these OT verses are quoted and applied by Peter:

I Peter 2:
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
​

Shouldn't we accept Peter's statement as authoritative and final?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Jehovah loves every human being he ever created; and wishes we all would come to salvation.

However, Johovah only saves those who come by the blood of the Cross...

Anyone who does not belong to Christ, follow Christ, and who chooses to reject Christ and deny Him....are eternally damned and cast into hell fire from that same God who lovingly created them.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "

Matthew 9:25 "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father"

I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

There is no corporate salvation of the soul from sin without acceptance, obedience, and following of Jesus Christ. Noone from either OT or NT times will be cleansed of sin without individual faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Neither passage you referenced speak of a group or corporate salvation of any souls.

Deut 7:6-8 when read in its context, shows the Hebrew Children who were redeemed from the treachery of Phaoroh and Egypt; not from eternal damnation.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Likewise, Deut 14:2 also doesn't speak about group or corportate salvation either. That concept may be accepted within dispensatanalism, but is not a teaching found within the Bible.

Deut 14:2 states: "14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. "

Again, showing that it is the faithful servants of the Lord....human beings whom He has chosen; which same faithful human beings continue on in the writings of Peter that quote this verse that Ebb shared.

Salvation is not by race.
Salvation is not by group.
Salvation is not by government.

It is be grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord period.

Jews and Gentiles are simply human beings lost in sin; in need of a savior.
Their salvation is not dependent on their green-card or pedigree....rather, upon their circumcision of the heart.

Those who take the narrow gate, who seek the kingdom of God, who are born again and written in the Lambs book of life; are whom will be saved when all Israel is saved and the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

One faithful Christian at a time....

Acts 4:10 "Be it known unto you all, AND to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

Romans 8-9 "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

 

[Tractor1]

Jehovah loves every human being he ever created; and wishes we all would come to salvation.

However, Johovah only saves those who come by the blood of the Cross...

Anyone who does not belong to Christ, follow Christ, and who chooses to reject Christ and deny Him....are eternally damned and cast into hell fire from that same God who lovingly created them.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "

Matthew 9:25 "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father"

I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

There is no corporate salvation of the soul from sin without acceptance, obedience, and following of Jesus Christ. Noone from either OT or NT times will be cleansed of sin without individual faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Neither passage you referenced speak of a group or corporate salvation of any souls.

Deut 7:6-8 when read in its context, shows the Hebrew Children who were redeemed from the treachery of Phaoroh and Egypt; not from eternal damnation.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Likewise, Deut 14:2 also doesn't speak about group or corportate salvation either. That concept may be accepted within dispensatanalism, but is not a teaching found within the Bible.

Deut 14:2 states: "14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. "

Again, showing that it is the faithful servants of the Lord....human beings whom He has chosen; which same faithful human beings continue on in the writings of Peter that quote this verse that Ebb shared.

Salvation is not by race.
Salvation is not by group.
Salvation is not by government.

It is be grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord period.

Jews and Gentiles are simply human beings lost in sin; in need of a savior.
Their salvation is not dependent on their green-card or pedigree....rather, upon their circumcision of the heart.

Those who take the narrow gate, who seek the kingdom of God, who are born again and written in the Lambs book of life; are whom will be saved when all Israel is saved and the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

One faithful Christian at a time....

Acts 4:10 "Be it known unto you all, AND to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

Romans 8-9 "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

God bless you Dave.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[nancy70x7]

Dave, dispensatanalism??

I'm really hoping this is just a typo, given your obvious animosity toward dispensationalism. If it isn't, it's really uncalled for.

 

[Jerrysch]

You should really become more familiar with the scriptures before you start making careless statements like this as if they were fact. It is disengenuous to you, and to those who might read your posts.

The scripture will strongly disagree with this opinioned statement as well.

From Revelation chapter 4 to Revelation chapter 20 we find...

Israel is only mentioned one time in one verse...

Rev 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Here we go with the numbers game again!

Become mor familiar with the scriptures? Upon what basis do you make this claim? Do you know me? I am sorry you don't agree with me. But to your objections.

 

[Jerrysch]

From Revelation chapter 4 to Revelation chapter 20 we find...

Israel is only mentioned one time in one verse...

Rev 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Even if we bend this one reference to include all references of the 144K as well; then we only add twelve more verses (Revelation 7:3-8 and Revelation 14:1-5) that mention the 144K found in the entire book.

Your claim that "God's dealings with Isreal dominate the book of Revelation from about chpater four to 20"

...is completely unfounded when the book of Revelation is examined between chapters 4-20.

• Revelation 4-20 contains 285 verses....
• Israel is mentioned once
• the 144K are mentioned in only 12 times.

That's 272 verses that don't mention Israel or the 144K....looks like you have misplaced Israel in the same way you seemed to have misplaced the church throughout the NT as well.

Again, my statement was;

They are...ethnic Isreal that is 144K of them! God's dealings with Isreal dominate the book of Revelation from about chpater four to 20.

The truth of the matter is that the Church is removed from the earth somewhere near chapter 4, if you replace Israel with the church, then you have the church hanging arround through the GT. This really plays havoc with the meaning of words, and then you can read into the text just about anything.

I think I have already dealt with the "numbers game" yet again you resort to it! Well in the context of that then the text mentions Israel , yet it never again mentions the church!? So what do your numbers mean?

 

[Jerrysch]

I will quote you in (living) color and respond in that same color (I hope I don't run out of different colors!)

Who do you find in Revelation chapters 4-20?

Let's let scripture tell us some of the people (Christ's Redeemed) we find there...

• 5:9 "for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation"
  
  
• 6:11 "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed"
  
  
• 7:9 " a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people"
  
  
• 7:14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "
  
  
• 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God"
  
  
• 9:4 "those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads"
  
  
• 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. "
  
  
• 11:18 "and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"
  
  
• 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony"
  
  
• 12:17 "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "
  
  
• 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints"
  
  
• 13:8 "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb "
  
  
• 13:10 "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "
  
  
• 14:4 "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men"
  
  
• 14:5 "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
  
  
• 14:6 "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"
  
  
• 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him"
  
  
• 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
  
  
• 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"
  
  
• 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
  
• 15:2
  
• 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus"
  
  
• 17:8 "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world"
  
  
• 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. "
  
  
• 19:6 "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
  
  
• 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"
  
  
• 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ"
  
  
• 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books"
  
  

I do not dispute the method or redemption, all who are redeemed are redeemed by grace through faith , no one is redeemed because of their nationality.

the "thou" refers to Christ

these are tribulation saints

These are the ones who are redeemed as a result of the ministry of the 144K

This refers to the prayers of the saints of all time which includes, but is not limited to the praysers of the church.

These are the ones who are not redeemed, they are those who have taken the mark of the beast.

11:13 These are those who were dwellers in the city which was destroyed in the earthquake, who gave glory to God.

11:18 It is my believ that the phrase; "Your servants the prophets and the saints" refers to the redeemed of all time".

12:11 These are those who had been accused by the devil

12:17 These are ethnic Jews who have been redeemed by way of the ministry of the 144K and/or the two witnesses of Chpt 11.

13:7 The he refers to Satan those which he is making war with are the redeemed of ethnic Israel.

13:8 These are them who have rejected the message of the 144K, the unredeemed of mankind living at that tiem.

13:10 Probally the redeemed of all time

14:4 These are the 144K who are redeemed Jews who are now in heaven
14:5 These are the 144K who are redeemed Jews who are now in heaven

14:6 This has reference to an angel and those who are left living on the earth

14:7 Command of the angel to those who are living on earth.

14:12 the redeemed of all time

14:13 the redeemed who die from that point in time onward

15:2 Tribulation saints
17:6 Tribulation saints

17:8 The non redeemed of the world then living

 

[Jerrysch]

Well, Revelation does say they are Israelites, doesn't it, so we can't dispute that. I was just noticing the differences in this census compared to that of the OT.

I'm sure if we turn to additional scripture from the NT, we would have an even clearer picture of this group of Israelites where the priests are now so prominent and that are now led by the Tribe of Judah.

Good Eb! There is a difference, I am not sure why, but we can agree that these are of ethnic Israel.

 

[Jerrysch]

They are the 'all Israel' of Rom 11.

Actually they are a subset of all Israel of Rom 11. All of Israel will be those ethnic Jews who survive the great tribulation...the nonbelieving ethnic Jews will be killed.

 

[Jerrysch]

hindsey wrote:

Joshua 21:43,45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
2 Corinthians 1:19 "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him"

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

hindsey wrote:

No one believes anyone has been replaced. All human beings are sinners, and all human beings are either born again and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and saved by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the atonement of their sins; or they are not. Those who are, belong to Christ and noone will cast them out....those who do not belong to Christ will be broken off and cast into the Fire.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "

Matthew 9:23 "And Jesus said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

I John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. "

I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."
hindsey wrote:

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. "

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Galatians3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Ephesians 3:21, 4:4 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Corinthians12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

2 Corinthians5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13 "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

By your answering of question #1

1) for DISPENSATIONALISTS: Other than the promise of the land of Palestine, what promises are there in the Old Testament given to Israel that the Church does not take part of.

are you considering yourself to be a dispensationalist?

 

[Jerrysch]

Ok, I am new to this subject, but it seems that lately it comes up a bit... It seems to me that there are in fact differences between God's dealing with the national Jews and with those that have born-again after the resurrection of Christ. So, I have questions:

#1) for DISPENSATIONALISTS: Other than the promise of the land of Palestine, what promises are there in the Old Testament given to Israel that the Church does not take part of.


Thanks.

Lots of them. In short any promice which has yet to be fulfilled to ethnic Israel will be fulfilled by God to them. For starters; Look at Zech 14, this has not happened yet, even so it will and you will notice that it is in reference to ethnic Israel.

 

[Jerrysch]

Ok, I am new to this subject, but it seems that lately it comes up a bit... It seems to me that there are in fact differences between God's dealing with the national Jews and with those that have born-again after the resurrection of Christ. So, I have questions:


#3) Can somebody give me a clear definition of what implications there are by allowing OT Saints to be called part of the "Church"?

Thanks.

First off, it is inconsistant with the teaching of the word of God. Jesus stated that He would build His church, indicating that at the time it did not exist. Secoundly, God has dealt with Israel differently than He has with the church. He has made covenants with Israel which do not extend to the church. An implication of calling the OT saints the church has to do with the then "authorized" transferance of the unfullfilled promices which were given to ethnic Israel to the church. OT saints were composed of the peoples who were redeemed by grace through faith prior to the redemptive work of Christ. The end of the age of the OT saints and the beginning of the church is still being disputed, yet it is my understanding that the church found its beginning as described in Acts 2. Those who were redeemed by grace through faith prior to this date were part of the group which you refered to as OT saints.

 

[Jerrysch]

Your Scripture reference has no bearing on the ultimate fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Though choosing to walk in disobedience to the Lord does cause the loss of covenant blessing it never could cause its cancelation because its fulfillment depends on God alone. It makes little difference if the land was possessed at one time or not, as the Lord gave it as an everlasting possession.

"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gen. 13:15).

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant,..." (Gen. 17:7).

"Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; and hath confirmed the same to Jacob for law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant" (1 Chron. 16:16-17, Ps. 105:9-10).

Scripture clearly declares the nature of the covenant.

Though Israel is not a believing nation today, once the Deliverer comes out of Sion, all Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:26) and possess all that God has promised forever.

In Christ,
Tracey

What you said!

 

[Jerrysch]

There is no corporate salvation of the soul from sin without acceptance, obedience, and following of Jesus Christ. Noone from either OT or NT times will be cleansed of sin without individual faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

He wasn't saying that there is he stated this;

"Scripture speaks of two elections, one is national (Deut. 7:6-8, Deut. 14:2), one individual (Eph. 1:4). In this dispensation God is calling out from among the Jew and Gentile individuals in formation of the Church, but Jehovah loves Israel with an everlasting love (Jer. 31:3), and in regard to her His gifts and calling are without repentance (Rom. 11:29)."

​

National election refers to the fact that Isreal, as a nation, will be preserved as a nation. It has nothing to do with salvation unto eternal life. ​

 

[Ebb]

Good Eb! There is a difference, I am not sure why, but we can agree that these are of ethnic Israel.

We can only agree they are Israelites from the text and that there are differences. These differences, along with the numbers of the tribes themselves, obviously have deep spiritual meanings. So, we must consult other scriptures.