Ethics

[ericlawrence]

Does god command things because they are ethical? Or are things ethical because they are commanded by god?

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ericlawrence]

LOL - i just saw this Q yesterday, only somewhere else....

can the answer be "both" ?

I don't see how it can be both. Either morality exists as some standard outside of god which god does or doesn't abide by, or morality is simply the willingness to obey that which god commands. In other words, is it theoretically possible for god to command something unethical? Or is it definitively ethical because it was commanded by god?

If you still think that "both" is a viable option would you care to expand?

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ericlawrence]

well, being as you are an atheist (i see on your profile), then it would be "correct" to say morality is man-made, based on our natural instincts to preserve.

Well, yes. I have a full understanding of my own ethics and consider myself to be somewhat of a moralist. The question really can't be posed to me as I do not believe in god, as you correctly noted. But for the purpose of discussion I'm willing to grant the hypothetical that a personal creator of the universe does exist. I'd like to explore the implications of this with those who make the presumption.

HOWEVER...as a Christian, this is my answer: God IS ethics, and I know where you are about to run with that one....so, yes, His commands to kill in the OT are ethical, as they pertain to His chosen people, the Jews/Hebrews....He is protecting and preserving them.

We don't have to run in this direction, as I tend to find the evil of the New Testament exceeding that of the Old. In any case, the god of Abraham appears to go above and beyond the call of protecting and preserving his chosen people - instructing them to kill "every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him" and to keep only the young virgins for themselves (for reasons best left unspecified). Is ordering the abduction and rape of the children of your enemies ethical under any circumstance?

If I kill the predator of my 8 year old daughter, am I unethical? I broke the law of the land, but am I unethical??? Would I be found guilty by a jury of my peers?

Possibly, and possibly not. However, one thing we know for sure is that if you not only kill the predator of your 8 year old daughter, but also kill his wife, his son, and his dog - sparing only his 8 year old daughter so that you might rape and enslaver her... yes, you would be unethical.

I digress, sorry. Anywho, to answer you properly, I guess I would have to have *YOUR* definition of ethical, since it's subjective.

Ethics are questions regarding the wellbeing of sentient creatures. Part of my argument is that the wellbeing of sentient creatures is not subjective.

 

[ericlawrence]

oh, and great Q btw....i've seen some of your others on here.

you really are a thinker.

Thanks. I've been pleasantly surprised with the general response as well. I'm rather brash and unapologetic on the subject, but the conversations have been largely positive thus far.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[AlexBP]

Does god command things because they are ethical? Or are things ethical because they are commanded by god?

The former. Christianity believes and has always believed that there is an unchangeable standard of righteousness and that God's commandments follow that standard. This is contrary to the teaching of Islam, which says that whatever God chooses to do is right.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ericlawrence]

I see that you are taking a bow, but I'd like to respond to your post directly in case if anyone else would like to respond.

Indeed...is it?

There isn't a circumstance that I can imagine in which the abduction and rape of innocent children could be considered ethical. In the case that such a circumstance does indeed exist, I would need this to be demonstrated to me prior to acting out such a heinous commandment. As you may have guessed, I don't accept anything worth mentioning on faith alone - especially the ethical implications of rape and murder. If asked by the creator of the universe to gut my own child - or even to revere the man who would, as all monotheists are asked to do - my response is simply (can I say this?) "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] you."

well, in that case, yes, God does command things that seem unethical. Here's the kicker - you ever heard of the butterfly effect? yes, God, the old mean so-and-so, does allow evil, pain, suffering, etc etc etc etc in the world...but it's all for a reason, part of a MUCH bigger picture....the way I believe has nothing to do with each of us as individuals, kinda like what we want doesn't matter....but I'm sure that's another thread somewhere - LOL.

Is god not the author of this picture? If the picture requires the allowance of such egregious acts then one must conclude that god was either unable or unwilling to paint a picture without this appalling requirement. In which case he isn't both omnipotent and omni-benevolent.

I'm not very eloquent (big duh, i know) so I'll stop there and let someone a lot smarter than me pick up with you.

Thanks Eric! Have a great day!

Feel free to come back if you change your mind.

 

[ericlawrence]

you must've haunted Yahoo R&S before, too, then....LOLOL!!!!!

yes, I like it here for the same reason...the A-team is a lot nicer here...I guess b/c y'all are on "our turf"? hee hee - totally kidding.

Actually I spent a good amount of time in the religious sections of a forum called "Argue With Everyone," mostly arguing debating Young Earth Creationists. It's pretty much the lewdest political forum out there. That's why I'm not so used to there be rules here.

 

[ericlawrence]

The former. Christianity believes and has always believed that there is an unchangeable standard of righteousness and that God's commandments follow that standard. This is contrary to the teaching of Islam, which says that whatever God chooses to do is right.

I haven't heard this before either.

"You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

By what predefined standard of morality is this commandment based on?

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[ericlawrence]

ok, last time, for real...LOL


Now that's being God's judge and knowing the mind of God, which none of us do...and YES, He obv is the painter of the bigger picture, all the more reason I don't question Him. BELIEVE ME - I've had my own share of pain and suffering and have turned my back on God on more than one occasion, all because things did not work out the way I wanted them to. But, I can say with all honesty, that so far, it has all worked out for my greater good. Do I have a right to be PO'd with God for the things He allowed to happen to me?? Yes, I think I do....but I don't.

This is where I find a fundamental misconception of atheism. I haven't "turned my back on god" because of pain and suffering. I live a perfectly happy and fulfilling life. All in all, I'm very well off. I simply don't believe that the metaphysical claims of theism are true. The number one contributing factor to my atheism is not that I am angry - it is that I care whether or not my beliefs are true. As magnificent and beautiful as this universe is, I see no evidence of a creator. This does not upset me. Rather, it enthralls me! We live in a world where matter is capable having intelligible discussion regarding it's own existence. The Earth is but a single mote of dust in our galaxy, which itself is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe. Yet, this all functions perfectly well without making the assumption of a celestial big brother monitoring our every waking and sleeping thought. I don't need to externalize my blame. And I'm not content to accept the unknown by simply attributing it to god's unquestionable and mysterious ways. I want to learn all I can about this place I find myself in before I must leave it forever.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[drich0150]

Does god command things because they are ethical? Or are things ethical because they are commanded by god?

"Ethics" are terms and conditions defined by man in an effort to encapsulate a very specific essence of God. To ask your question is to not understand the basic nature of "Ethics."

(Because ethics are not commanded in scripture, they are simply identified by man as being ethical, which again is an alignment of one's works to the attribute of a specific nature of God.)

 

[ericlawrence]

whoa, Big Daddy...i never said that....if you'll see my profile, my dad is an atheist, and it's not for that reason, either. however, I will say that he is an angry person....but, i dont think its b/c of his beliefs or lack of...

I said *I* turned my back on God - and, I'll stand here and admit I denounced God and His existence, too. yes, there is so much evidence out there that eludes to there not being a God, but I swear to you with my last breath, it takes MORE faith to believe that we are a random accident, Dr. Hawking.

Who says random accident? An accident implies design. My stance is that the origins of life can be attributed to entirely natural (as oppose to supernatural) causes.

 

[ericlawrence]

"Ethics" are terms and conditions defined by man in an effort to encapsulate a very specific essence of God. To ask your question is to not understand the basic nature of "Ethics."

(Because ethics are not commanded in scripture, they are simply identified by man as being ethical, which again is an alignment of one's works to the attribute of a specific nature of God.)

So you would not agree that ethics are questions concerning the wellbeing of sentient creatures?