Eternal Torment...Hypothetical Question?

[DanQ]

SCENARIO:

A man has raped and murdered 20 boys and girls. He heard about a punishment of torture that he would have to endure for the rest of his life if he committed these acts and he did it willingly despite this warning.

I have a torture method that would inflict the worst pain possible on an individual and still keep him alive.

1) Is it ethical, just, or right to take this man, put him in my basement, and put him on this torture machine for the rest of his life (assuming this is 70 years) to be in unfathonable pain day and night for the rest of his life?

2) If because of his actions he was immediately taken to my basement and the tortue began when he got there, is it ethical, just, or right for me to let him endure this torture?

If the answer is no to either #1 or #2, how can I justify believing in a God who does claim this is just (if we accept the traditional church doctrine on this issue and believe in place of torture that would continue indefinately called Hell) and would continue this tortue for eternity if the man never believed in Jesus? If Jesus was alive today, could you replace me with him in this scenario and have a different answer?

 

[Idea]

God does not put us in hell, He does everything in His power (save take away our free agency) to get us out of hell. If anyone is in hell, it is becuase they have chosen to put themself there. everyone will have an opportunity to choose - in this life or in the next. It is just.

See "God did not create evil." thread. Part of us was not created by God. He is in no way responsible for anything evil. God is here to save mankind.

The Son and the Father are one in purpose.
Luke9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
John10:30 I and my Father are one.

He would not be God if He took away our free agency though. Robots cannot love, you cannot be perfect without being able to Love. He will not take away our potential to become as He is. He cannot force anyone to Love, you cannot force anyone to be selfless... you cannot force anyone to be perfect...

 

[DanQ]

God does not put us in hell, He does everything in His power (save take away our free agency) to get us out of hell. If anyone is in hell, it is becuase they have chosen to put themself there. everyone will have an opportunity to choose - in this life or in the next. It is just.

See "God did not create evil." thread. Part of us was not created by God. He is in no way responsible for anything evil. God is here to save mankind.

The Son and the Father are one in purpose.
Luke9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
John10:30 I and my Father are one.

He would not be God if He took away our free agency though. Robots cannot love, you cannot be perfect without being able to Love. He will not take away our potential to become as He is. He cannot force anyone to Love, you cannot force anyone to be selfless... you cannot force anyone to be perfect...

You did not address scenario #2. The murderer did in a way "choose" to go to my torture chamber. He heard about the place being where he would go if he committed his acts and he still did it. He was transported or "beamed" into my basement because of his choices and the torture began. I did not technically put him there, and he technically chose to be there. Is it ethical, just, or right for me to leave him there knowingly for the rest of his life? You could even say to remain logical that some other evil person took him there, but it is within my power to do something about it.

 

[Idea]

There is no need to suffer unless we reject the atonement that Jesus has given us. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we would not have to if we would come to Him. It is those who will not accept this atonement who suffer for their own sins...

It is a hard thing - Jesus is perfect, loving, kind... I would rather something hurt me than see it hurt another person - it is hard to let another person get hurt... especially if the person getting hurt is Jesus. It is good motivation for those who know - to not sin - to not hurt Him anymore.

 

[DanQ]

There is no need to suffer unless we reject the atonement that Jesus has given us. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we would not have to if we would come to Him. It is those who will not accept this atonement who suffer for their own sins...

It is a hard thing - Jesus is perfect, loving, kind... I would rather something hurt me than see it hurt another person - it is hard to let another person get hurt... especially if the person getting hurt is Jesus. It is good motivation for those who know - to not sin - to not hurt Him anymore.

Huh? That made very little sense. You again are failing to even address my question. Is it ethical for me to allow this tortue to take place in my basement based upon the teachings of Jesus? If the answer to this question is no...how can I justify believing in a God who does believe this to be just and will allow it to happen in his own "basement"? These are two questions...it would really help the discussion if you actually addressed the question. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

 

[DanQ]

There is no need to suffer unless we reject the atonement that Jesus has given us. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we would not have to if we would come to Him. It is those who will not accept this atonement who suffer for their own sins...

It is a hard thing - Jesus is perfect, loving, kind... I would rather something hurt me than see it hurt another person - it is hard to let another person get hurt... especially if the person getting hurt is Jesus. It is good motivation for those who know - to not sin - to not hurt Him anymore.

Really though...I do not in any way mean to demean the suffering of Christ on the cross. I don't think it's possible to understand the pain and suffering he went through that day. HOWEVER, with as much respect as possible, His suffering is a drop in the bucket compared to eternal torment in the flames of hell. Literal fire? Even if it's just seperation from God...he was seperated from God for a time period and it was excrutiating for him, but to be seperated from God and in darkness without end? Jesus' suffering cannot compare to eternal suffering. Jesus conquered death and punishment...and this was represented in his death and punishment for our sins. I don't think comparing his suffering as a replacement for mankinds continual pain in hell would make much sense...it would make sense if it is our replacement for severe punishment and physical and spiritual death (eternal extinction) and the means by which we obtain eternal life.

 

[Idea]

Huh? That made very little sense. You again are failing to even address my question.

sorry - I was not a lib arts major - communication is not my strong point The subject is not one that can be explained in a few simple words though...

Is it ethical for me to allow this tortue to take place in my basement based upon the teachings of Jesus? If the answer to this question is no...how can I justify believing in a God who does believe this to be just and will allow it to happen in his own "basement"? These are two questions...it would really help the discussion if you actually addressed the question. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

They say God is all powerful... in one way He is not.
He cannot make a "square circle"
He cannot make a rock that is larger than He can move
He cannot force us to Love,
He cannot force us to be selfless.
He cannot save everyone from hell. (If He could, there would be no hell)
You ask the impossible when you ask that everyone be saved - and there is such a thing as impossible.

It is impossible to be a "perfect Loving God" and at the same time take away our minds and force us to act and think as we should.

Robots do not Love, Robots are not selfless, or humble. Robots do not have charity... Robots are not "alive". What does it mean to be alive? what is life? The whole point is trying to get "eternal life" so what is life?

“There is no universal definition of life; there are a variety of definitions proposed by different scientists. To define life in unequivocal terms is still a challenge for scientists” - Wicipedia

The difference between a rock and a plant - life grows of it's own accord - that is what makes it so beautiful - life is not some carbon copied, manufactured puppet. To me, “Life” can only be self-existent by nature. If it is not self-existent, it is just someone playing with Legos. When something takes on “a life of it’s own” it has become it’s own entity rather than a mere creation…

Is mankind God’s creation?
In Gen. God creates the Earth, the sky… creates the body of man, but does not “create” man. Rather, God “breathes” life into Adam. I am a parent, are my children my creation? No. They have a life of their own. Their own thoughts, their own personality. They are not just some mixture of their parents.

What is better – a robot or a person? Even if the robot could for all intensive purposes mimic a person in color, texture, smell – if the robot could work harder, be perfect… there would be nothing more to the robots than what you put into it and so it would be hollow. Nothing to explore, no triumph in seeing it stand firm in the wind, no relationship with it – you can’t Love a robot, and it will not Love you. Love has be freely given… freely given not out of obligation, or duty, or out of fear.. It is in the nature of what life is - that it cannot be controlled, and as such, there is a hell, and a heaven, and everything imbetween....

Life is unique, diverse... every leaf, every tree, every person is different... another side to life - diversity - that we are not carbon copies - diversity, that we can learn from those around us, eternal progression instead of eternally stagnant... requires diversity - a best, a worst, and everything in the middle... If everything was the same, there would be no existense...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The theory of relativity – ever hear of it? Everything is measured relative to something else. Like velocity – velocity does not exist except by comparing two objects moving in opposite directions. A single object alone in a void has no velocity. With no reference frame, velocity does not exist. Velocity is not zero, it is not undefined – it literally does not exist for a single object with no reference frame. Consider heaven and hell the reference frame for life to exist. Life literally would not exist without it – the depth and breadth of life is proportional to the magnitude of the difference between heaven and hell.

OK - it is late - obviously Prob did not understand any of what I just wrote, sorry - don't know how else to explain it...

Just one question - what is life? Infinite eternal, with infinite possibilities and infinite potentials for infinite numbers of different types of existence... what is eternal life?

 

[DanQ]

Now that's a post...I don't care how tired you are!

They say God is all powerful... in one way He is not.
He cannot make a "square circle"
He cannot make a rock that is larger than He can move
He cannot force us to Love,
He cannot force us to be selfless.
He cannot save everyone from hell. (If He could, there would be no hell)
You ask the impossible when you ask that everyone be saved - and there is such a thing as impossible.

Who is the Creator here? I'd say the only thing God can't do is limit himself. There is no Biblical justification for any of these points. I'd also go on to say that it's a dangerous thing for us to limit God. Sure, he can't make a rock bigger than he can move because he can't create something bigger than he is, He is infinite. God can force me to do anything He wants me to do. I'm not saying he would, but let's not strip God of power. Your version of God is weak and forces us to look at him within the boundries of our own understanding of the universe.

Just one question - what is life? Infinite eternal, with infinite possibilities and infinite potentials for infinite numbers of different types of existence... what is eternal life?

I think this is almost leading me to a different answer than what you were intending to lead me to. Life is defined by its antithesis...death. The Bible only promises "Eternal Life" to those who believe, not to those who don't. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." So eternal torment compared to eternal life is a non-comparative. They are not opposites. Eternal Life (being alive and aware forever in God's presence) is set against Eternal Death (being dead, destroyed, consumed, GONE forever). The wages of sin is not eternal torment in a place called hell...the wages of sin is physical and spiritual death, extinction. Christianity is about the fountain (tree) of LIFE.

As you can tell, I'm processing through our modern conceptions of hell and considering the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Idea]

Now that's a post...I don't care how tired you are!



Who is the Creator here? I'd say the only thing God can't do is limit himself. There is no Biblical justification for any of these points. I'd also go on to say that it's a dangerous thing for us to limit God. Sure, he can't make a rock bigger than he can move because he can't create something bigger than he is, He is infinite. God can force me to do anything He wants me to do.

He cannot force you to Love - it is not Love if it is forced

I'm not saying he would, but let's not strip God of power. Your version of God is weak and forces us to look at him within the boundries of our own understanding of the universe.

This makes God weak? No - it makes Him quite impressive - for God is Love, and to be such in the presence of free agency is the most noble glorious kind of "being" that there is.

I think this is almost leading me to a different answer than what you were intending to lead me to. Life is defined by its antithesis...death.

yes - opposites define eachother, opposites create eachother. No Heaven without hell - it is the theory of relativity.

The Bible only promises "Eternal Life" to those who believe, not to those who don't. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." So eternal torment compared to eternal life is a non-comparative. They are not opposites. Eternal Life (being alive and aware forever in God's presence) is set against Eternal Death (being dead, destroyed, consumed, GONE forever). The wages of sin is not eternal torment in a place called hell...the wages of sin is physical and spiritual death, extinction. Christianity is about the fountain (tree) of LIFE.

As you can tell, I'm processing through our modern conceptions of hell and considering the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Eternal life - is to become Loving, selfless - to let go of yourself at a deep enough level that you can truly become aware of others around you. Heaven is found in the relashonships we have with one another.

Death is the opposite - unloving, selfish, self-centered - an entity that will never grow as they will never allow themself to be open to others around them who would teach them to grow. They are too prideful to experience any reality except their own, and so are trapped in a very small sad little world.

7th day advents? I want to say I am similar to them as we both believe in "worlds without number" although I do not know their understanding of the "big picture".

Thanks for your questions!
Always fun to ponder the possibilities

 

[screamin4u2hear]

I personally think that the Biblical view of Hell is more of an annihilation theory rather than eternal torment. Granted there are verses that seem to imply an eternal punishment but the very nature of God seems to suggest otherwise. I do not believe in temporary punishment or some kind of purification place or purgatory. I believe that Hell is a literal place in which unimaginable suffering occurs. I believe that God's standard for judgment was set in the Old Testament as an "eye for an eye." And this was the highest form of judgment.

It is only by the Grace and Mercy of God that we escape the logical end to the "eye for an eye" standard. I believe that when unbelievers die and are doomed to Hell.... they do suffer for a certain amount of time. But then they are "thrown into the lake of fire." The imagery and the words used in the Greek suggest that of a fire that is burning up something. When something is burned up it no longer exists even though the flame can still burn because of the coals.

Anyways I believe that we are judged for what we have done in the world and held accountable to that. God judges each person according. Those who are unbelievers are punished for a time and then they are thrown into the lake of fire in which they are consumed and they cease to exist.

In this view God is still the God of love and the just God for eternity. Those who do not believe Him are truly separated for eternity because they simply do not exist.

Not sure if all that makes much sense but maybe I can clear it up if there are any questions/comments about it.

 

[Idea]

... Granted there are verses that seem to imply an eternal punishment but the very nature of God seems to suggest otherwise. ..

The nature of God - God does not put us in hell - we put ourself there. Free agency is not free agency if He forces our actions... robots cannot love can they? He will not take away our ability to choose for ourself who we would be.

It is only by the Grace and Mercy of God that we escape the logical end to the "eye for an eye" standard.

agreed!

I believe that when unbelievers die and are doomed to Hell....

Just to clarify "unbelievers" - God will not hold anyone responsible for those things they do not know - He is just.

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(New Testament | Luke12:46 - 48)

For those who do not find God in this life, progression is still possible beyond the veil. Proxy baptisms for the dead allow all to accept or reject the atonement...

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians15:29)

they do suffer for a certain amount of time. But then they are "thrown into the lake of fire." The imagery and the words used in the Greek suggest that of a fire that is burning up something. When something is burned up it no longer exists even though the flame can still burn because of the coals.

I picture torment as being created by one-self. You cannot force someone to love - if they cannot let go of themself - cannot become selfless - cannot love - they will not experience what such a life will bring - knowing what they miss out on would certainly be torment.

Anyways I believe that we are judged for what we have done in the world and held accountable to that. God judges each person according.

Bravo!

Those who are unbelievers are punished for a time and then they are thrown into the lake of fire in which they are consumed and they cease to exist.
In this view God is still the God of love and the just God for eternity. Those who do not believe Him are truly separated for eternity because they simply do not exist.

I do not know that it is possible for anyone to blink out of existence... It would be a merciful solution, but is an impossible solution... I believe that we have to be reformed - not because of anything God has created - but because part of us is eternal and self-existent. If God created "everything" he would not be Loving would He? So it stands to reason that He did not create everything, that He is not the only self-existent being... and what is self-existent cannot be destroyed - the form that is taken can be altered though. Evil can be transformed from being a physical reality with power over matter - power over flesh - or it can be nothing more than a spirit - an abstract idea, with no power... Whatever the end for those who choose not to progress, their choice is their own, and does not say anything about the nature of God.

Not sure if all that makes much sense but maybe I can clear it up if there are any questions/comments about it.

Let me know if what I said makes sense You believe in a Loving merciful God, and you believe in accountability for one's own actions I think - and if that is true - then it seems you have most of it figured out