eternal suffering

victorinus

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why do you believe in eternal suffering?
-here is what the bible says about eternal life
-eternal suffering is not possible without eternal life
-right?
-so why is eternal life so special?
-isn't the opposite of eternal life death?
-where can you talk to an atheist about eternal life?
 

SkyWriting

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Why do you believe in eternal suffering?

The concept is "Torment" and the illustration of the rich man has him
thinking about others and speaking rationally. There is no spit on a
rotisserie type of illustration of Hell.

6349D-rotisserie.png
 
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Shempster

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God told Adam he would DIE. He also said "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus and Paul told us we can DIE in our sins. He says he is concerned that none perish. The only time torment comes to mind is when Satan and the fallen ones are tormented in the lake of fire. Yes it is said that the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE AND WILL BE TORMENTED FOREVER AND EVER, but only THEM that are being tormented. It does not say that wicked humans are tormented. It says the lake of fire IS the second death. Death sounds like death to me. Not unending torture.
 
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Der Alte

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God told Adam he would DIE. He also said "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus and Paul told us we can DIE in our sins. He says he is concerned that none perish. The only time torment comes to mind is when Satan and the fallen ones are tormented in the lake of fire. Yes it is said that the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE AND WILL BE TORMENTED FOREVER AND EVER, but only THEM that are being tormented. It does not say that wicked humans are tormented. It says the lake of fire IS the second death. Death sounds like death to me. Not unending torture.

The lake of fire passages, in context.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
 
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Der Alte

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The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,
• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24
These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
.....Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (
Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that
sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son,
hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).
When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in

The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in
Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators,
that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
 
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Shempster

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Der Alter,
with all love and respect I can tell you that I have heard hundreds of hell fire sermons and can probably even explain the different denominations particular beliefs.

There is one serious problem with all if this...
we should assume that God knows the future. We can also assume that before He created anything He knew how it would pan out. So, then we must assume that the day before He created Adam, He must have pictured the scenario mere thousands of years later and saw that nearly the entire human race would fail to say the sinners prayer in the name of Jesus and would have a rotten human existence for 70 years and then boil in oil screaming in agony forever. Then He must have thought, welp...that's the way it goes! Those people had their free will and blew it. Tough luck. Better luck next time! Whoops there is no "next time" Sorry. Gotta go listen to some sweet harp music to try and block out your screams.

I know this was exaggerated but really that's what it amounts to. A God who "IS" love? Are you sure about this unending torture thing????
 
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Zemira57

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does God want anyone to suffer eternally?
Of course not. That's why Jesus died in our place for our sins . It's your decision to reject His sacrifice. When you could so easily accept it & give your life to Christ, thus live in all eternity with Him! :)
 
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nothead

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Of course not. That's why Jesus died in our place for our sins . It's your decision to reject His sacrifice. When you could so easily accept it & give your life to Christ, thus live in all eternity with Him! :)
Wayell, accepting Jesus isn't exactly being faithful to Jesus, might be HARD here and there...

Just saying as a Devil's Advo. Billy Graham's rallies might have had less altar goers IF he stressed the LORDSHIP of Jesus.
But the ones started MAY have continued on as the seed which matures into fruition.
 
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Zemira57

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Wayell, accepting Jesus isn't exactly being faithful to Jesus, might be HARD here and there...

Just saying as a Devil's Advo. Billy Graham's rallies might have had less altar goers IF he stressed the LORDSHIP of Jesus.
But the ones started MAY have continued on as the seed which matures into fruition.

Right...that's why I said accept Him, then give your life to Christ. It's a transformative thing that has to take root in someone's heart, like you mentioned.
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alter,
with all love and respect I can tell you that I have heard hundreds of hell fire sermons and can probably even explain the different denominations particular beliefs.

What you claim to have heard and what you think you can explain is irrelevant and of course it does NOT address any of the scripture or historical evidence I provided

There is one serious problem with all if this...
we should
assume that God knows the future. We can also assume that before He created anything He knew how it would pan out. So, then we must assume that the day before He created Adam, He must have pictured the scenario mere thousands of years later and saw that nearly the entire human race would fail to say the sinners prayer in the name of Jesus and would have a rotten human existence for 70 years and then boil in oil screaming in agony forever. Then He must have thought, welp...that's the way it goes! Those people had their free will and blew it. Tough luck. Better luck next time! Whoops there is no "next time" Sorry. Gotta go listen to some sweet harp music to try and block out your screams.

Wild supposition and speculation which does NOT cite any scripture whatsoever.

I know this was exaggerated but really that's what it amounts to. A God who "IS" love? Are you sure about this unending torture thing????

I quoted scripture all you have done is throw out your opinion. "This is what I think and this is what I feel so God must think and feel exactly what I think and feel.
 
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victorinus

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Of course not. That's why Jesus died in our place for our sins . It's your decision to reject His sacrifice. When you could so easily accept it & give your life to Christ, thus live in all eternity with Him! :)
you are not really answering the question
-does God want those who reject His sacrifice to suffer eternally?
 
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