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fhansen

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It’s not just about believing in Him without understanding what that faith entails. Unless faith produces likeness to Him, we haven’t remained faithful at all, we haven’t remained in Him. Because if we do remain in Him, fruit will be produced.

Overcoming sin, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned, counseling the doubtful, spreading the good news about the love of God, having and expressing love of God and neighbor in general IOW. We need to do a “fruit-check” now and then. Then we know whether or not our faith is truly worth anything.
 
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You're not the first to pick up on that.
 
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How many check mark boxes do we need to fill each month to have a reasonable hope we're keeping ourselves from going to hell? Is 20 enough?
 
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Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. Obviously the Lord knows all things. He knows those who want to justify sin, and He knows those who want to strive to do what is right according to His Word.
 
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fhansen

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And THAT is why it is a denial of FUNDAMENTAL Christian doctrine.
No, it's not. And Gal 4:20 has nothing to do with eternal security. Justification, a free gift which makes us suitable for heaven in God's eyes, is, as with any gift, something that can be accepted, embraced, appreciated, and used for its intended purpose, or can be rejected, thrown away-at any point in time.

Justification is a state of being, which can be compromised and lost by living unjustly, opposing Gods will, failing to live by the Spirit, failing to remain in the vital communion with Him that we were made for. Returning to the law is one way this is done, which is a main concern of Paul's in Gal 4.
 
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fhansen

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How many check mark boxes do we need to fill each month to have a reasonable hope we're keeping ourselves from going to hell? Is 20 enough?
Turn the question around. How much bad fruit can we produce and still have a reasonable hope that we're keeping ourselves from going to hell. Is no amount of such fruit too much?
 
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I think that comprehensive and concise statement something most if not all of us can agree on. God knows our intentions and desires on a spiritual level.
 
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The reality is that we are all going to die and there will be a judgment (Hebrews 9:27). Another reality is that the Bible teaches that sin is separation from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62), unless we confess and forsake our sins (See: Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). We know by Scripture in numerous places that God will not accept our justifying sin in some way. I believe that is what Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security makes an allowance for. Sin. But Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Does your version of grace teach that? Paul says we have that we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Many Christians I talk with today think they can sin and still be saved on some level all because they have a belief in the finish work of the cross or a belief in Jesus alone as their Savior. This sounds like justifying sin. Did Jesus ever justify sin? Paul says we have the mind of Christ. So we cannot justify sin because Jesus did not do so.

Please keep in mind that the Bible says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. For the purpose of this section of the forums, I will say that these verses are referring to how we must overcome and crucify those serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns (like hate, fornication, drunkenness, lying, coveting, idolatry, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). A believer who justifies sin and yet uses Eternal Security as a cover up for their sins is not going to make it into the Kingdom. We know this because Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM whoever works iniquity (sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
 
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Turn the question around. How much bad fruit can we produce and still have a reasonable hope that we're keeping ourselves from going to hell. Is no amount of such fruit too much?

So you're saying we are the ones keeping ourselves out of hell?
 
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Those I know of who believe in grace, do not believe in it as a license for immorality. More like a license to not try earning salvation through works. Those who purposely abuse grace would fall into an entirely different category. I think if someone were to post "being saved by grace means I get to sin wantonly and still be saved", then all your lengthy arguments would apply better. But so far I haven't seen that happen.
 
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fhansen

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So you're saying we are the ones keeping ourselves out of hell?
I'm saying sin can separate us from God all over again. And who's responsible for our sin? He doesn't cause it. The answer is that only in partnership or communion with God can we hope to overcome the sin that separates us from him. And that's why Jesus came.

Our first job is only to acknowledge our sinfulness and absolute helplessness in overcoming it on our own. And so enter fellowship with him by faith and then remain in that relationship
 
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I'm saying sin can separate us from God all over again. And who's responsible for our sin? The answer is that only in partnership or communion with God can we hope to overcome the sin that separates us from him. And that's why Jesus came

What you basically said before was, we have to make sure we are producing enough good fruit by keeping track of how many good deeds we do. And I asked you how many good deeds per month does that come to? Do we have to do one or more of each thing you listed per month?

 
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BNR32FAN

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Bless you friend but the promise of these people having life and not coming into judgement is contingent upon hearing and believing Jesus’ words. So this doesn’t necessarily include anyone who heard His words and believed because some will believe only for a while and later they will fall away. So then this promise would not cover these individuals because they don’t continue to meet the requirements. We must abide in Christ in order to receive salvation. Jesus made this clear in John 15:1-7.
 
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To all:

My experience with Eternal Security folk is that they do justify sin on some level when push comes to shove (even when they will talk at another point in promoting holy living). For they don’t believe a Christian is out because of one serious sin that goes unconfessed and or not forsaken. Yet, we know Adam and Eve committed just one sin each and led to spiritual death. We know Ananias and Sapphira each died and were condemned for committing just one sin each.

The problem with Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security is that even if you say that we must live holy, each group defines that differently when the Bible clearly tells us about the various different serious sins that will condemn us if we do not confess and forsake them. It’s not just not murdering, not coveting, not lying, etc. but it is not loving God and others, too. We have to love the brethren. For he that does not love his brother is not of God according to 1 John 3:10. So if one fails to love their brother in this life (When they had opportunities to do so), they are not going to make it. This shows that Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security are simply false according to Scripture. God requires us to be holy and to be fruitful. To what degree? God does not say we need to be over abundantly in order to be saved. Matthew 25:21 simply says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. So we must be faithful over a few things in regards to being fruitful for God’s kingdom. It may not be a lot because we are faithful over a few things. So we do not need to be super stars. We just need to love God and love others and that involves doing and not just with our words alone.
 
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BNR32FAN

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This explanation surely seems to make sense when examined by the verses you quoted but how does it stand up to the rest of scripture? Say John 15:1-7 for example? Or 2 Timothy 2:11-13?
 
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Bless you brother but personally I would say that our salvation is more contingent upon repentance not so much on refraining from sin but repenting from sin since we will all stumble.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Who said "eternal security is a fundamental Christian doctrine"?

It didn’t become a doctrine until the 16th century. Even in the earliest church writings it is refuted as early as the first century by Clement and Iranaeus.
 
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I disagree based on what Paul said in Galatians 5:4.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Surely a person cannot receive eternal life who has been severed from Christ and fallen from grace.
 
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Bless you brother

May the Lord bless you even more abundantly, brother.

You said:
but personally I would say that our salvation is more contingent upon repentance not so much on refraining from sin but repenting from sin…

I really do wish it were as easy as you say but that is just not the reality of what I read in the Bible, brother. I do take that you mean “repent” as to mean: “seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over our sin or sins by way of prayer to Him.” This is how I see repentance if that is what you mean. But I think that if we do not forsake sin, and or overcome it at some point in our lives, then we are just paying lip service with no real intention of reforming or changing for the Lord. It would be like a man who cheats on his wife and tells her that he is sorry but he has no real intention of ever stopping or believing that he has the power to stop (even if he tried). This means he does not really love his wife and he loves his sin more than her. This needs to change for him, and only the Lord can heal his heart if he fights for it and He allows God to change His heart.

You said:
…since we will all stumble.

Only Modern Translations erroneously say that we all stumble in many ways in James 3:2.
The trusted Bible for hundreds of years (the KJB) says in James 3,

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2) (KJB).​

So it says offend and not stumble. I notice this with Modern Translations. While I may use Modern Translations to help update the 1600’s English in the King James at times, they can at times push a gnostic belief because the gnostic’s denied the Incarnation and they denied the existence of sin or they denied the idea that sin will condemn their soul. James 3:2 is just one of many examples of Modern Translations pushing a gnostic belief.
 
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