Eternal security?

[dysert]

I was so deeply in thought when I made my post above, I didn't realize it was my very first post until I saw the "1". Anyway, for my second post, I'd like to say Hi to everyone here and how impressed I am with the website and the people who post on it. I've spent three days reading various threads and I haven't put a dent in it...such a variety of interesting topics. God Bless you all.

Welcome, Captive. I look forward to reading more of what you have to say. (And I'm honored that you'd quote me in your first post )

 

[TasManOfGod]

The child still had the parents' genes, and s/he always will no matter what.

Perhaps -but would not the father think the action unforgivable? (ie., blaspheming the gene pool)

 

[dysert]

Perhaps -but would not the father think the action unforgivable? (ie., blaspheming the gene pool)

I really don't think that's relevant. The child remains the biological offspring of the parents. As children of God, we remain the offspring of Him, no matter what.

And speaking for myself, if one of my kids did that I would still consider them my child, and I would always long for the relationship to be restored.

In my mind, although the relationship may be broken, the position of the involved parties doesn't change.

 

[JimB]

The point is, I think, that a choice is not what got you in. It was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus by the operation of God that gave us the new birth. There is no such "mechanism" or power to kill the spirit of Christ that now lives in you. There is a new birth that came about by the operation of GOd... but there is no "new death" with the power to change you reborn spirit to a spiritual dead adamic spirit again.

Where are you getting the power to change your spirit from one state to another? You can make choices, but without power to actually effect the change... your choice is meaningless.

I disagree with this. IMO, we have to choose. If we do not choose, we are lost, otherwise we can just forget about evangelism. That seems simple to me. Technically, I think I understand what you are saying but to dismiss freewill is a mistake, IMO. We must willingly cooperate with God if he is to save us, just as a drowning man must cooperate with a lifeguard if they are to be rescued.

What I hear you saying is that not only do we lose our freewill at salvation but so does the Holy Spirit, who is trapped inside us regardless of whether or not we renounce Christ. In the OT I read that “the Spirit departed from Saul (1 Sam. 16.14) and from Samson (Judges 16.19). Why would he not depart a person, a believer, who renounces Jesus Christ?

~Jim

 

[Optimax]

I disagree with this. IMO, we have to choose. If we do not choose, we are lost, otherwise we can just forget about evangelism. That seems simple to me. Technically, I think I understand what you are saying but to dismiss freewill is a mistake, IMO. We must willingly cooperate with God if he is to save us, just as a drowning man must cooperate with a lifeguard if they are to be rescued.

What I hear you saying is that not only do we lose our freewill at salvation but so does the Holy Spirit, who is trapped inside us regardless of whether or not we renounce Christ. In the OT I read that “the Spirit departed from Saul (1 Sam. 16.14) and from Samson (Judges 16.19). Why would he not depart a person, a believer, who renounces Jesus Christ?

~Jim

Saul was not born again.


Jesus had not been sacrificed yet!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Here's the thing that I haven't heard much of here in replies, and by no means am I meaning this post to sound offensive, but most of what I've read in replies to my original post have been a "humanistic" approach to this. Now I will admit there are certain passages that would seem to say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But unless I'm mistaken, a key ingredient to salvation is repentance... Jesus preached it, John the Baptist preached it, Ezekiel preached it (from God's own mouth), the Apostles preached it. Is repentance a one time thing or a continuous action? If I say today I repent of my sin and then continue on in those same sins, does that not prove my confession of repentance nothing more than just words? Repentance is a turning away from said thing and going in a completely opposite direction, and continuing in that direction.

What I'm getting at here is biblical answers to a biblical doctrine. How do you interpret Jesus' words of John 15:1-7 in terms of once saved always saved? If you REMAIN in Me and I REMAIN in you, you will bear much fruit, but if you DO NOT REMAIN you will be cast off into the fire.... Something can not remain unless it was first in there in the first place, case in point. I buy a Big Mac from McDonalds. The burger comes in a neat little box. The minute I open that container and remove it, it's no longer remaining in the box, but has been removed, so in order for something to remain somewhere it must first be in that thing to begin with. So if Jesus says if you do not remain in Me, is He not saying that it is possible for someone who has been in Him to leave afterward?

Just to close on my first point, repentance is a continual life long process. It does not mean that if we slip once or twice that we have ceased that process, but we did just that, we slipped and God will forgive us of those relapses (1 John 1:9-2:2) But repentance means to turn away from, and how can anyone claim a place in God's Kingdom if they stop "repenting" and go back to deeds of the flesh? Galatians 5:16-6:8; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[lismore]

Only by grace, this passage might answer your question:

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Corinthians 3.

Salvation is by grace
Reward is by works, what you have done, your fruit.

Some will be saved but only as one escaping through the flames.

When it is time to receive the crowns some will have none to receive. But they will still be there because of what Jesus has done.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Only by grace, this passage might answer your question:

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Corinthians 3.

Salvation is by grace
Reward is by works, what you have done, your fruit.

Some will be saved but only as one escaping through the flames.

When it is time to receive the crowns some will have none to receive. But they will still be there because of what Jesus has done.

Completely agree, salvation is by grace only (thus my s/n). Just asking though, but doesn't Romans speak of ceasing from sin and works of the flesh? Also Corinthians and Galatians... Romans goes so far as to say

Romans 6:1-2, "What should we say then? Should we continue in sin so that grace may multiply? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? "

Romans 6:15-16, "What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey —either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 11:17-24, "Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Obedience to God and His commands is absolutely necessary for salvation. To tell someone that they can pray a sinner's prayer and then lead them to believe that they can never again fall back into risk of hell fire is wrong.

Like I stated before, I do think there are verses that would seem to agree on once saved always saved, but there are definately a lot of scriptures that would say otherwise, so I would say it's better to side on caution, than just salvation no matter what.

Galatians 2:17-18, "But if we ourselves are also found to be “sinners” while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild the system I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker."

If I rebuild...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Many years ago, I worked the evening shift at a local plant. I would get off work after midnight, and because I had no vehicle, I would walk a mile home in the dark. It was during one of these walks that the Lord began to speak to me about the difference between relationship and fellowship.

There are two kinds of life (and death) spoken of in the Bible. There is physical life (and death) , and spiritual life (and death) . Physical life is life in the body. When you die physically, your spirit leaves your body, for "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Spiritual death means you have the fallen nature of the devil in your spirit. All men are spiritually dead from the day they are born. When a person is born again, that old dead spirit is removed, and the living new spirit of Christ is placed in you!

There are two kinds of sin for the new testament Christian. There is "sin unto death", and "sin not unto death". The sin unto death is the sin "after the similitude of Adam", that causes one to die spiritually, and results in a loss of relationship with the Father. Sin not unto death is sin that does not cause you to die spiritually, but does cause you to lose fellowship, and may eventually result in a judgment against you, leading to physical death.

1 John 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Let me paraphrase and emphasize these verses for clarities sake:

1 John 5 (my paraphrase)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto (spiritual) death.

With this, you can see the two kinds of sin, life, and death being discussed.
The reason I am bringing this out, is to show you that you do not lose your eternal life with every sin you commit. All unrighteousness is sin, and has a price. But that price is not always spiritual death. Most sin is sin not unto spiritual death. This sort of sin causes a break in fellowship with God, but not relationship. To fellowship means to partake of the cup together. It means to share of food with each other at the same table. When you sin a sin not unto spiritual death, you remain born again but you will be out of fellowship with God, and not be able to partake of the benefits of His table. You must restore fellowship with Him at once. Failure to repent and restore fellowship can lead to mental and physical sickness, problems in your life and family, and even physical death!

The above passage from 1 John shows that we should pray for our brother who we see has sinned a sin not unto spiritual death. If we pray for Him, our intercession on his behalf can actually save him from physical death! But John goes on to say that we should not pray for the man who sins a sin unto spiritual death. To do so is a waste of time. The one who has sinned a sin unto spiritual death is spiritually dead, and beyond the reach of our prayers to restore him. He has cast off Jesus and God and denied the Gospel. He is a child of satan again, and we cannot overrule his decision by our prayers anymore than we could pray to have any sinner born again against their will.

Lets Look at a few more passages to bring out and confirm this truth further.

Look at what Paul said about the sowing of the flesh, and where we would reap the corruption:
Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

"...he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.."
You are going to pay for unconfessed sins of the flesh by the corruption of your flesh. This is why John said to pray for those who you see sinning sins of the flesh. You can save them from that corruption. The words say that the Lord will "...give them life ...".
(1 John 5:16)

Look at another of Paul's references:

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...". Why? So "that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".!!! This man's spirit was still saved, but because he was in danger of eventually denying Christ in preference to his sin, it was better that he be delivered to satan; not for the destruction of his spirit, but for the destruction of his flesh. It would be better that he die physically while in a saved condition than to continue to live in, and be hardened by sin, and eventually deny the Lord.

We see similar wording in to Timothy:

1 Timothy 1
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

These men were actually into some sort of false doctrine, and were in the same danger as the above mentioned fornicator because of it.

Look at something Jesus said:

Luke 13
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Note that Jesus said these men were not sinners beyond anyone else. He also says that the tragedy they suffered was a result of their sin. He also said that if we do not repent of our sin, we could likewise perish. The "likewise" perish was physical death. Nothing is said about hell or the condition of their spirits. If fact, Jesus specifically says they were no worse than anyone else. It is conceivable that there may have been righteous men among them! But Jesus said that if we do not repent of our sin, we would suffer, and even lose our physical lives. "Ye shall all likewise perish", i.e. you will suffer physical death. Yes, there is a hell, and there will unfortunately be many in it. But not all sin condemns you to hell. Not all sin causes you to lose your spiritual life.
I am trying to bring you to the place where you see the love of the Father for you. The prodigal son who left his Father and ended up eating pig food never ceased to be his Father's son. When he finally repented and went home, the Father was waiting for him with open arms. When we sin, we leave the banqueting table of the Father and eat pigs food. Sin has it's own punishments. The Father waits for you, hunting your silhouette on the horizon. He is not angry with you, nor will He cast you out for your weakness. He waits for your return. (Jesus, however, may have a few words with you about your conduct toward Himself and the Father, if you will humble yourself and listen! This is the chastisement that you need if you are to learn how to conduct yourself in the household of God.)

I want you to understand that He is on your side. He wants you to be victorious and overcome. He is cheering you on, and moving at every opportunity you give Him to act on your behalf. His is not waiting with a big flyswatter, drawn back ready to smack you at the first sign of weakness. He is not against you. He is like any earthly father who watches his children grow up. They fall, and pick themselves up, only to fall again. The father is there to help them up and heal their wounds. But he cannot walk for them. He cannot learn the lessons for them. He is saddened when they fail. He is disappointed when they fall short. But he does not turn his back on them. He does not disown them when they need him the most. Our Heavenly Father is infinitely better than any earthly father.

What does this have to do with overcoming sin and never sinning again? You need to understand that your Heavenly Father is on your side, even when you sin a sin not unto death. He is there ready to forgive and accept you back into fellowship with Him. He wants you seated at the table with Him where you belong! Sinning a sin not unto death breaks your fellowship, but does not break your relationship.

DO NOT LET FAILURE KEEP YOU AWAY FROM THE THRONE OF GRACE!

It is when you fail that you need Him the most!!!
Much of the teaching today has you running to the woods to hide like a servant who go caught with his hands in the coin box. It is when you sin that you need Him! It is when you sin that you have need of His mercy, not when you are righteous!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He is telling you to come boldly unto the throne of grace when you have sinned! You do not need grace, mercy, and help when you are walking in the light of righteousness! This is the place of those who have sinned, and are in need of mercy and grace. This is a departure from common theology. Most teach that when you sin, you are lost, and cannot approach God. This is saying that not only can you approach, but you can approach BOLDLY! God is on your side, and wants you to come to Him when you fail. Do not hide your face from Him, which would be the natural thing to do.

There are two things we are dealing with: relationship and fellowship. Sin not unto death breaks fellowship with God, and results in loss of "physical life" blessings. Sin unto death breaks relationship with God, and results in loss of eternal life.
If you sin a sin not unto death, you should immediately repent and confess your sin. This restores your fellowship and restores your access to the "physical life" benefits. Realize that God is on your side, and wants you restored.

 

[lismore]

Just asking though, but doesn't Romans speak of ceasing from sin and works of the flesh? ...

Yes. But that's for reward not for salvation. Your saved by Jesus' righteousness not your own. That is why you cannot loose your salvation. It isn't yours it's his.

But you will be rewarded for your works, ceasing from sin, fruit etc. All must appear before the judgement seat and give account.

Rev 22: 12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done!

You cannot forfeit salvation but you can forfeit reward and be ashamed on the day of the Lord!

 

[JimB]

---

 

[JimB]

Many years ago, I worked the evening shift at a local plant. I would get off work after midnight, and because I had no vehicle, I would walk a mile home in the dark. It was during one of these walks that the Lord began to speak to me about the difference between relationship and fellowship.

There are two kinds of life (and death) spoken of in the Bible. There is physical life (and death) , and spiritual life (and death) . Physical life is life in the body. When you die physically, your spirit leaves your body, for "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Spiritual death means you have the fallen nature of the devil in your spirit. All men are spiritually dead from the day they are born. When a person is born again, that old dead spirit is removed, and the living new spirit of Christ is placed in you!

There are two kinds of sin for the new testament Christian. There is "sin unto death", and "sin not unto death". The sin unto death is the sin "after the similitude of Adam", that causes one to die spiritually, and results in a loss of relationship with the Father. Sin not unto death is sin that does not cause you to die spiritually, but does cause you to lose fellowship, and may eventually result in a judgment against you, leading to physical death.

1 John 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Let me paraphrase and emphasize these verses for clarities sake:

1 John 5 (my paraphrase)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him (physical) life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto (spiritual) death.

With this, you can see the two kinds of sin, life, and death being discussed.
The reason I am bringing this out, is to show you that you do not lose your eternal life with every sin you commit. All unrighteousness is sin, and has a price. But that price is not always spiritual death. Most sin is sin not unto spiritual death. This sort of sin causes a break in fellowship with God, but not relationship. To fellowship means to partake of the cup together. It means to share of food with each other at the same table. When you sin a sin not unto spiritual death, you remain born again but you will be out of fellowship with God, and not be able to partake of the benefits of His table. You must restore fellowship with Him at once. Failure to repent and restore fellowship can lead to mental and physical sickness, problems in your life and family, and even physical death!

The above passage from 1 John shows that we should pray for our brother who we see has sinned a sin not unto spiritual death. If we pray for Him, our intercession on his behalf can actually save him from physical death! But John goes on to say that we should not pray for the man who sins a sin unto spiritual death. To do so is a waste of time. The one who has sinned a sin unto spiritual death is spiritually dead, and beyond the reach of our prayers to restore him. He has cast off Jesus and God and denied the Gospel. He is a child of satan again, and we cannot overrule his decision by our prayers anymore than we could pray to have any sinner born again against their will.

Lets Look at a few more passages to bring out and confirm this truth further.

Look at what Paul said about the sowing of the flesh, and where we would reap the corruption:
Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

"...he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.."
You are going to pay for unconfessed sins of the flesh by the corruption of your flesh. This is why John said to pray for those who you see sinning sins of the flesh. You can save them from that corruption. The words say that the Lord will "...give them life ...".
(1 John 5:16)

Look at another of Paul's references:

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...". Why? So "that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".!!! This man's spirit was still saved, but because he was in danger of eventually denying Christ in preference to his sin, it was better that he be delivered to satan; not for the destruction of his spirit, but for the destruction of his flesh. It would be better that he die physically while in a saved condition than to continue to live in, and be hardened by sin, and eventually deny the Lord.

We see similar wording in to Timothy:

1 Timothy 1
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

These men were actually into some sort of false doctrine, and were in the same danger as the above mentioned fornicator because of it.

Look at something Jesus said:

Luke 13
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Note that Jesus said these men were not sinners beyond anyone else. He also says that the tragedy they suffered was a result of their sin. He also said that if we do not repent of our sin, we could likewise perish. The "likewise" perish was physical death. Nothing is said about hell or the condition of their spirits. If fact, Jesus specifically says they were no worse than anyone else. It is conceivable that there may have been righteous men among them! But Jesus said that if we do not repent of our sin, we would suffer, and even lose our physical lives. "Ye shall all likewise perish", i.e. you will suffer physical death. Yes, there is a hell, and there will unfortunately be many in it. But not all sin condemns you to hell. Not all sin causes you to lose your spiritual life.
I am trying to bring you to the place where you see the love of the Father for you. The prodigal son who left his Father and ended up eating pig food never ceased to be his Father's son. When he finally repented and went home, the Father was waiting for him with open arms. When we sin, we leave the banqueting table of the Father and eat pigs food. Sin has it's own punishments. The Father waits for you, hunting your silhouette on the horizon. He is not angry with you, nor will He cast you out for your weakness. He waits for your return. (Jesus, however, may have a few words with you about your conduct toward Himself and the Father, if you will humble yourself and listen! This is the chastisement that you need if you are to learn how to conduct yourself in the household of God.)

I want you to understand that He is on your side. He wants you to be victorious and overcome. He is cheering you on, and moving at every opportunity you give Him to act on your behalf. His is not waiting with a big flyswatter, drawn back ready to smack you at the first sign of weakness. He is not against you. He is like any earthly father who watches his children grow up. They fall, and pick themselves up, only to fall again. The father is there to help them up and heal their wounds. But he cannot walk for them. He cannot learn the lessons for them. He is saddened when they fail. He is disappointed when they fall short. But he does not turn his back on them. He does not disown them when they need him the most. Our Heavenly Father is infinitely better than any earthly father.

What does this have to do with overcoming sin and never sinning again? You need to understand that your Heavenly Father is on your side, even when you sin a sin not unto death. He is there ready to forgive and accept you back into fellowship with Him. He wants you seated at the table with Him where you belong! Sinning a sin not unto death breaks your fellowship, but does not break your relationship.

DO NOT LET FAILURE KEEP YOU AWAY FROM THE THRONE OF GRACE!

It is when you fail that you need Him the most!!!
Much of the teaching today has you running to the woods to hide like a servant who go caught with his hands in the coin box. It is when you sin that you need Him! It is when you sin that you have need of His mercy, not when you are righteous!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

He is telling you to come boldly unto the throne of grace when you have sinned! You do not need grace, mercy, and help when you are walking in the light of righteousness! This is the place of those who have sinned, and are in need of mercy and grace. This is a departure from common theology. Most teach that when you sin, you are lost, and cannot approach God. This is saying that not only can you approach, but you can approach BOLDLY! God is on your side, and wants you to come to Him when you fail. Do not hide your face from Him, which would be the natural thing to do.

There are two things we are dealing with: relationship and fellowship. Sin not unto death breaks fellowship with God, and results in loss of "physical life" blessings. Sin unto death breaks relationship with God, and results in loss of eternal life.
If you sin a sin not unto death, you should immediately repent and confess your sin. This restores your fellowship and restores your access to the "physical life" benefits. Realize that God is on your side, and wants you restored.

All this is interesting, but a Christian does not “sin away” their salvation. It is not a matter of our sinful acts (which were taken care of when Jesus made atonement for our sin), but of freewill—a believer can willfully renounce/deny/ abandon/ forsake/ reject/ forfeit their relationship with Christ and become shipwreck concerning the faith like Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim. 1.19-20, see also 2 Tim. 2.17-18 ) and fall from grace as the Galatians were in danger of doing (Gal. 5.4). ~Jim





.

 

[JimB]

The child still had the parents' genes, and s/he always will no matter what.

Yes, but every person has their own God-given DNA and that alone does not keep them from jumping off a cliff.

~Jim

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Absolutely love the discussion here, want everyone to know that. I've seen a lot of times on CF that antagonists get plastered and blasted by others, so I am not "arguing" with any of you.

That being said, what does O.S.A.S. say about Jesus' words in Matthew 7, about people thinking they were saved but in the end not being so? Was their conversion false? Did they prophecy and do many wonderful things in Jesus' name outside of His good will? I mean, it is a biblical fact that one must be in the covenant of God, in God's Kingdom that is, to cast out demons and heal in Jesus' name. Acts 19 gives example of that by telling of the Jewish exorcists who could not drive out a demon and were in fact beat up by that demon. So those people in Matthew 7 must have had a relationship with the Lord at some time. So, that leads us to this question, are there different levels of salvation? Does God save some only for a time, to accomplish His purpose then allow them to drift away? That's completely unbiblical and totally against the idea of grace. Those people would have known the Lord, just as much as you and I do, but yet Jesus still casts them out as workers of iniquity. Salvation is secure so long as we live a life of continued obedience and submission to the Lord.

The comment on works being destroyed by fire, but the individual still being saved (1 Cor 3) can that not be referring to an individual who is saved and has lived a life of obedience, but produced little to no fruit? I mean Jesus did give the Parable of the Sower that said there would be fruit produced in various people in various degrees. They will still be saved, but their fruit, for whatever reason does not remain.

The comment on sins causing corruption in the flesh and that's what Paul is speaking of in Galatians 6:8, I think is off base. Paul is contrasting two different things in that verse. Just a few paragraphs before, he talked about works of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit. He left absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that the two go against each other. (Gal 5:16-18) They are polar opposites of each other. Then in v19-21 he describes the works of the flesh and he concludes that list by saying that those who do such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Why would Paul tell Christians who would be saved irregardless that if they did such things they would not inherit God's Kingdom? So to close that passage Paul says in Galatians 6:7-8 that God can not be mocked and if you sow to the flesh you'll reap corruption and destruction to yourself (eternal destruction) because remember he is contrasting two things, and the opposite of eternal life (Heaven) is eternal death (Hell).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

just a point...
sowing corruption of the flesh reaps corrupion of the flesh... not "eternal destruction"

Gal 5
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

peace

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Regarding the passages from 1 Corin.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

There are many people who have been "saved" who are guilty of the above.

I am still debating these in my own heart and mind. But let me suggest a couple things that I hold true regarding this verse.

1. What is the "Kingdom of God"?
I understand the kingdom of God to be the sphere of the spirit. When Jesus said that the kingdom of God was within us, I believe He was saying it is in our hearts, or spirit.
The kingdom of God comes to us in this life:
Luke 9
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God is the new birth:
Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

2. When this verse says that these sorts of people will not inherit the "kingdom of God" I am almost convinced that He is talking about the spirit man within you. He in essance is saying that you must be born again. The new man that is born again into you has the divine nature... and does not have these evils as a part of it.
The new man born into us cannot sin these sins:

1 John 3:9 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Matthew 7:18 KJV
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If your spiritual nature has these evils, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.


3. The Corinthian fornicator was still consided saved. He was facing destruction of the flesh for his sin if he did not repent.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJV
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This man was a fornicator in his flesh, but was not in his spirit. If he died, it says he would be saved in the day of the lord Jesus.

4. 1 John 5 stipulates that there are two kinds of sin. One sort that causes spiritual death, and another that does not
.
1 John 5:16-17 (my paraphrase)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is a sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto (spiritual) death.

5. Gal 6 states that those who sin in the flesh will reap the corruption in the flesh.

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

My leadings therefore is that if a man is born again, he will not be the things that are described in these verses. The new man is pure and holy, and there is no sin in it. It is created after the image of God.

Of course he has the flesh to deal with.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

just a point...
sowing corruption of the flesh reaps corrupion of the flesh... not "eternal destruction"

Gal 5
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

peace

Well to this, how is it that Paul in Galatians 5 says that those who do the works of the flesh will reap destruction, eternal destruction, but then just a few sentences later he means something totally different in that one regard, but all the while not changing his point on living in the Spirit which results in eternal life.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Regarding the passages from 1 Corin.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

There are many people who have been "saved" who are guilty of the above.

I am still debating these in my own heart and mind. But let me suggest a couple things that I hold true regarding this verse.

1. What is the "Kingdom of God"?
I understand the kingdom of God to be the sphere of the spirit. When Jesus said that the kingdom of God was within us, I believe He was saying it is in our hearts, or spirit.
The kingdom of God comes to us in this life:
Luke 9
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God is the new birth:
Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

2. When this verse says that these sorts of people will not inherit the "kingdom of God" I am almost convinced that He is talking about the spirit man within you. He in essance is saying that you must be born again. The new man that is born again into you has the divine nature... and does not have these evils as a part of it.
The new man born into us cannot sin these sins:

1 John 3:9 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Matthew 7:18 KJV
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If your spiritual nature has these evils, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.


3. The Corinthian fornicator was still consided saved. He was facing destruction of the flesh for his sin if he did not repent.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJV
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This man was a fornicator in his flesh, but was not in his spirit. If he died, it says he would be saved in the day of the lord Jesus.

4. 1 John 5 stipulates that there are two kinds of sin. One sort that causes spiritual death, and another that does not
.
1 John 5:16-17 (my paraphrase)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto (spiritual) death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto (spiritual) death. There is a sin unto (spiritual) death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto (spiritual) death.

5. Gal 6 states that those who sin in the flesh will reap the corruption in the flesh.

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

My leadings therefore is that if a man is born again, he will not be the things that are described in these verses. The new man is pure and holy, and there is no sin in it. It is created after the image of God.

Of course he has the flesh to deal with.

In 1 Corinthians 5:5 it says to deliver than man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh THAT his spirit may be saved.... Isn't Paul saying here that it's better for that man to suffer a bit now for his sins than to allow him to continue unchecked and suffer eternal loss? I mean that word in that sense means in order to, or so that.... in other words, Paul is saying deliver this man for his flesh's destruction so that he may be saved. Doesn't that still support conditional security?

 

[franky67]

It seems to me that if you can choose to come in, you can choose to go out. The gate to the sheepfold swings both ways, depending on which way you choose to go. It's not locked behind you once you come in.

Just sayin'.

~Jim


-

These are verses which describe the miracle of God which happens in the twinkling of an eye, just as a pure heart accepts the gift of salvation.

To decide to join the Lion's Club, and then a year later decide to resign is a human operation of the fleshly mind, but we're dealing a supernatural God when we decide to accept the gift of His son Jesus.

The word for "sealed" in the three verses is like the seal of a king with his signet ring on a document, it means we belong to the King.

Now there are verses to the effect of our "working out our salvation" but I believe they don't negate the fact that once a one makes that request to God for salvation, and makes it with a pure heart, then we are His property.

A Kingdom is an organization ruled by the king, and no other.

Yes the frail flesh can slip and stumble, but the sins are not a life style, that's what John is saying in 1 John, that with our new perfect spirit, AND the Holy Spirit in us, it is impossible for us to maintain a life style of continually, knowingly, sinning.

22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 1 Cor. 1:22

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph. 1:13,14

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph, 4:30

 

[JEBrady]

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have a man who was sinning a grievous sin. He was engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife (it does not specify if it was actually his own mother, it may have been a step mother). Could this man still be "saved", or born again?!! Paul states that the man is "among you", opposed to being "among the Gentiles". Paul further says that the man "might be taken away from among you", showing that the man had not yet been taken from among them. But the main point here is that the man was to be "delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh...". Why? So "that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".!!! This man's spirit was still saved, but because he was in danger of eventually denying Christ in preference to his sin, it was better that he be delivered to satan; not for the destruction of his spirit, but for the destruction of his flesh. It would be better that he die physically while in a saved condition than to continue to live in, and be hardened by sin, and eventually deny the Lord.

Reading this passage, it looks like Paul’s main purpose is to rebuke the Corinthians for allowing this kind of sin to go on in the assembly and not address it by putting the sinning brother out. He goes on to say for them to have nothing to do with anyone who calls himself a brother who is practicing obvious sin, “not even to eat with such a one”, and to emphasize that the sin will threaten the church by spreading through the congregation. So the first purpose for this discipline is to protect the flock.

The second purpose for turning this man over to Satan is to wake him up through corporal punishment, if you will, and bring him to the place of repentance, not to kill him before he loses his salvation. He already isn’t right with God because he’s practicing perversion, but he hasn’t gone so far as to commit eternal (unforgiveable) sin (although headed for it), and so there’s still hope for forgiveness if he repents. Although it’s not stated directly, I believe that’s the purpose- to bring him to repentance before it’s too late and he dies in his sin. Notice that in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander, they are turned over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme. Getting killed isn’t going to cause them to learn much. So I see getting turned over to Satan basically as to suffer physically, and possibly but not necessarily to be completely physically destroyed. Also, many believe the fornicator in 1 Co 5 is the same man in 2 Co 2 who Paul is now saying that the punishment by the congregation is sufficient, and to forgive and allow him back into fellowship before he completely loses heart.

I’ve come to the place where I believe all discipline and chastisement this side of the grave is the mercy of God to bring about repentance and godliness that we not be lost. If a person crosses the line, committing eternal sin, I think the Holy Spirit departs from them and they’re left alone to face the fearful expectation of judgment that will devour the enemies of God.

I’m surprised anyone on this board would even broach this subject in scripture, since it’s not often ever heard taught in any church. Even the scriptures associated with it aren’t often even mentioned.