Eternal security?

[JimB]

Here was me thinking the work of the last Adam was superior to the work of the first Adam.

We don't have the freewill to renounce our sinnership outside of Christ, why would sonship be any different?

To begin this journey, we chose Christ. Right? Without freewill there could be no evangelism, or love, or faith. The decision to follow Him was ours alone. We can also choose to deny/renounce him, unless God has chosen to take away a Christian’s freewill and made us programmed cyborgs without the ability to choose. My two classic examples of this are Charles Templeton (founder of Youth For Christ and early colleague of Billy Graham) and Bart Ehrman (former ministerial student turned agnostic New Testament scholar), both of whom ran well until something (i.e., Princeton Seminary) hindered them and contributed to their shipwrecked faith. I have to wonder, will these two men be dragged to heaven screaming and kicking against their will?
~Jim

 

[JimB]

When my children were small and even growing into their teens they would say things they either did not mean or say things without understanding of what they were saying.

All Children do that at times. We do no always hear them say things.

Nothing they said not matter how much they thought they meant it at the time was sufficient to end our relationship. They were still my child, I was still their father.

What was affected at times was not the relationship, but the fellowship.

What restored the fellowship? When they said "I'm sorry".

Most Christians never get out of the "Babe in Christ" stage. They say and do things that break the fellowship until they repent. However the relationship is not broken or even touched.

I know that statement will be received with much enthusiasm but it is true anyway.
What keeps people from growing. They are in a place and chose to stay there where the milk of the word is not, much less any strong meat.

Most Christians(born again ones) are not capable of actual renouncing Jesus anymore than a two year old's fit renounces his parents.

I just know this post is going to make me extremely popular for awhile.

Actually I respect your view, although I do not necessarily agree with it. While God has made a way for us to escape eternal judgment, I believe he has left the choice to us. Freewill was his earliest (and best) gift to mankind, as seen in the choice he gave Adam & Eve regarding the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Had they not had freewill they would have been robots, unable to love or believe. Unfortunately, for all of us, they made the wrong choice. It took the Second Adam to set things right. But the choice to accept or deny remains ours and, IMO, the choice remains ours even after we are saved. God never takes away from us our divine right to choose our eternal destiny.

Your analogy is well received but, as with all analogies, it falls short and does not—indeed, cannot—perfectly reflect a truth. A child, even a rebellious child, remains a child but even the Prodigal was considered “lost” and “dead” by the Father until the son, by his own freewill, chose to return home. Only then did the Father say, “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.”. A son remains a son, even when he is dead but a dead son is, well, DEAD.

~Jim





-

 

[dysert]

God never takes away from us our divine right to choose our eternal destiny.

"Never" is a big word. Don't you think God will take away our "freedom to choose" once we're glorified? Do you think God has taken away the holy angels' "freedom to choose" since the Rebellion? Perhaps we're just discussing the *timing* of when this freedom is removed. We OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at justification. I'm guessing that non-OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at death. But it does seem clear that at some point in time the freedom is indeed removed.

 

[JimB]

"Never" is a big word. Don't you think God will take away our "freedom to choose" once we're glorified? Do you think God has taken away the holy angels' "freedom to choose" since the Rebellion? Perhaps we're just discussing the *timing* of when this freedom is removed. We OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at justification. I'm guessing that non-OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at death. But it does seem clear that at some point in time the freedom is indeed removed.

There is much about the afterlife we do not understand--eye has not seen or ear heard the things God has prepared for those who love him. I am content to let God hash all that out. My task is to trust him.

~Jim

.

 

[JimB]

"Never" is a big word. Don't you think God will take away our "freedom to choose" once we're glorified? Do you think God has taken away the holy angels' "freedom to choose" since the Rebellion? Perhaps we're just discussing the *timing* of when this freedom is removed. We OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at justification. I'm guessing that non-OSAS folks believe the freedom is removed at death. But it does seem clear that at some point in time the freedom is indeed removed.

OMT, If a Christian loses her/his freewill at the moment salvation then her/he could no longer choose to follow Christ or to love others, we would in fact become automatons. Our redemption from sin and judgment is solely dependent on our choice to follow or deny Christ. God has left that decision up to us and, to my mind, there is plenty of NT evidence that we continue to possess freewill even after we are saved.

~Jim


-

 

[dysert]

OMT, If a Christian loses her/his freewill at the moment salvation then her/he could no longer choose to follow Christ or to love others, we would in fact become automatons. Our redemption from sin and judgment is solely dependent on our choice to follow or deny Christ. God has left that decision up to us and, to my mind, there is plenty of NT evidence that we continue to possess freewill even after we are saved.

~Jim
-

We certainly continue to possess free will after we're saved. I was just talking about the "freedom to choose". In my mind, once that decision has been made (in the affirmative), it's sealed.

 

[Optimax]

Hebrews tells us that there are some who can "freewill" opt out.

However, Hebrews also list the qualifiers for a person to do that.

There are five(5) of them.

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV


None of us have operated in the last one.

Even then it does not say that they would not be forgiven.

It does say that to renew them to repentance is impossible.

 

[JimB]

Hebrews tells us that there are some who can "freewill" opt out.

However, Hebrews also list the qualifiers for a person to do that.

There are five(5) of them.

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV


None of us have operated in the last one.

Even then it does not say that they would not be forgiven.

It does say that to renew them to repentance is impossible.

I always thought Hebrews 6 was written to those Hebrew Christians who were abandoning the church (not necessarily the faith) because of persecution mentioned in chs. 10, 12, & 13. The advice is to not allow those fair-weather Christians who abandoned the church to return (repent) once the heat is off.

~Jim

 

[Always in His Presence]

No one can "lose" their salvation. But you can forfeit it ... unless you are a robot and have no freewill. You lose your carkeys; you have to willingly renounce your salvation.

~Jim

Sit down, take a deep breath



We agree 100%

 

[JimB]

Sit down, take a deep breath



We agree 100%

-

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I would suggest that free will only matters when your decision can effect a change.
Can free will cause the moon to turn to cheese? Does the fact that you cannot turn the moon to cheese mean that you no longer have free will?
Of course not. It just means "free will" does not grant you the power to put your decisions into force.
So the question is do you have the power to change your nature from regenerate to unregenerate? You did not have the power to change your fallen nature to righteous? That took the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and the power of God to accomplish. Your "free will" to choose had nothing to do with it.
So do you have the power to effect a change in the nature of your reborn spirit? I suggest not. And if not, then free will has nothing to do with the discussion. Free will only matters when your choice can make a difference. In this case it does not. All the free will in the universe cannot enable you to change your spirit from Christ to Adam.
You do have the choice as to whether you will walk according to the divine nature that has been created into you. And you will suffer in this life if you choose not to.
If you sow corruption of the flesh, you will endure corruption of the flesh.
Peace

 

[TasManOfGod]

Losing as in "now where are those car keys , I had them a while back so they must be around somewhere?" is a lot different from "I am sick and tired of hanging on to these car keys , I will exchange them for a new set that I can get from
Beezlebub Motors"

 

[JimB]

I would suggest that free will only matters when your decision can effect a change.
Can free will cause the moon to turn to cheese? Does the fact that you cannot turn the moon to cheese mean that you no longer have free will?
Of course not. It just means "free will" does not grant you the power to put your decisions into force.
So the question is do you have the power to change your nature from regenerate to unregenerate? You did not have the power to change your fallen nature to righteous? That took the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and the power of God to accomplish. Your "free will" to choose had nothing to do with it.
So do you have the power to effect a change in the nature of your reborn spirit? I suggest not. And if not, then free will has nothing to do with the discussion. Free will only matters when your choice can make a difference. In this case it does not. All the free will in the universe cannot enable you to change your spirit from Christ to Adam.
You do have the choice as to whether you will walk according to the divine nature that has been created into you. And you will suffer in this life if you choose not to.
If you sow corruption of the flesh, you will endure corruption of the flesh.
Peace

It seems to me that if you can choose to come in, you can choose to go out. The gate to the sheepfold swings both ways, depending on which way you choose to go. It's not locked behind you once you come in.

Just sayin'.

~Jim


-

 

[lismore]

It seems to me that if you can choose to come in, you can choose to go out. The gate to the sheepfold swings both ways, depending on which way you choose to go. It's not locked behind you once you come in.

Just sayin'.

~Jim


-

The Good shepherd leaves the 99 to find the lost one.

 

[romansonesixteengirl]

I think the child analogy is great! As Christians, can anyone say that after tasting this life that they WANT to leave it? It's really difficult for me to believe that someone who has been brought into the family of God would ever WANT to leave it. And on top of that I do not believe God will grab anyone and send them to heaven against their will but by the time they get to that place will they want to go to Hell?

Matthew 7: 21-23 says "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" --

You mentioned two men of shipwrecked faith. Maybe they never had a faith in Christ. They did things in Christ's name, but never has a relationship with Him. Only Christ can judge their hearts, but we know some people will be missing that we thought would be in heaven and people we never expected will be there also.

My last point is that Jesus says He will not allow anyone into the Kingdom relpying, " I NEVER knew you." Would this not eliminate all previous Christ followers? He would have known them at some point, right?

We are His children and we cannot lose our salvation
And I thank Him for it everyday!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It seems to me that if you can choose to come in, you can choose to go out. The gate to the sheepfold swings both ways, depending on which way you choose to go. It's not locked behind you once you come in.

Just sayin'.

~Jim


-

The point is, I think, that a choice is not what got you in. It was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus by the operation of God that gave us the new birth. There is no such "mechanism" or power to kill the spirit of Christ that now lives in you. There is a new birth that came about by the operation of GOd... but there is no "new death" with the power to change you reborn spirit to a spiritual dead adamic spirit again.

Where are you getting the power to change your spirit from one state to another? You can make choices, but without power to actually effect the change... your choice is meaningless.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I once read where somebody divorced their parents. I don't know why they did but they did

 

[dysert]

I once read where somebody divorced their parents. I don't know why they did but they did

The child still had the parents' genes, and s/he always will no matter what.

 

[Captive]

I used to believe one could lose one's salvation -- giving back God's free gift, if you will. But the more I studied it the more I have become convinced that you can't lose your salvation. I'll just give two simple reasons why I believe this way.

For one thing, Jesus' sacrifice covered all our sins -- past, present, and future. So there's nothing we did, are doing, or will do that would overwhelm His sacrifice. God is the one who saved us, and He is the one who holds us. We did nothing to gain salvation, and we can do nothing to lose it.

The even stronger evidence that we're safe comes from 1 John. There we're told that when we became children of God, His "seed" (Gr. sperma) was put in us (1 John 3:9). Just as I have my earthly father's seed in me, so also do I have my heavenly Father's seed in me. And just as there's nothing I could possibly do to eliminate my earthly father's seed, so also there's nothing I could possibly do to eliminate my heavenly Father's seed.

Eph. 1:13-14 is another popular OSAS passage.

Very, very insightful and profound. As we are descendants of our earthly fathers, we are also descendants of our Heavenly Father.

 

[Captive]

I was so deeply in thought when I made my post above, I didn't realize it was my very first post until I saw the "1". Anyway, for my second post, I'd like to say Hi to everyone here and how impressed I am with the website and the people who post on it. I've spent three days reading various threads and I haven't put a dent in it...such a variety of interesting topics. God Bless you all.