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Eternal Security

DeaconDean

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You utterly miss the point that the reason God's word is trusted is because he is Sovereign. If he wasn't Sovereign we couldn't trust his word.

We know he is Sovereign because that's how he has revealed himself to us by Jesus Christ, the prophets and apostles, as well as in nature. We know that whatever God says goes because he is the all powerful God.

Does it bother you that God is in control and created you without your blessing? Would you rather have not existed, or do you thank him for his grace in giving you life?

Amen!

Adon

There is also Adon (singular) which means Sovereign, Lord, Master, Possessor. It occurs 30 times (e.g. Exodus 23:17).
Adonahy

Then there is Adonahy (plural, perhaps like Elohim)which means the same as Adon and it occurs about 200 times (e.g. Genesis 15:2, 8).

How Should the Names of Deity be Properly Rendered?

Even Abraham addressed "God" as Adonahy:

"And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?" -Gen. 15:2 (KJV)

Abram addressed God as Adonai or Master - the Master has the right of possession and the one possessed is charged with submission to God, his Master (cp Ge 15:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6).


Adonai always has reference to headship, and to God's purpose of blessing. (A W Pink)
Adonai..."signifies ownership or mastership and indicates "the truth that God is the owner of each member of the human family, and that He consequently claims the unrestricted obedience of all." (Nathan Stone)

http://www.preceptaustin.org/adonai-lord-the_name_of_god.htm

And for future reference guys, I am not " High, Ultra-high, or Hyper".

I am a Calvinist Baptist. Educated in seminary in Reformed Theology by Dr. James Willingham, Phd, D. Minn. He is my friend, was a Pastor, my teacher, and a very dear dear brother in Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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faceofbear

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God is not the "author" of sin. He allowed sin to happen and he decreed it will be destroyed. He has provided sufficent grace for the unbeliever to repent and believe, however they will not. The ones God has elected to salvation he has given a greater amount of grace to. He has given them the irresistible grace of regeneration.

This isn't what Calvin taught. Calvin taught Christ's death provided no grace for anyone but the elect and that grace is nothing but effectual. That is, if anyone receives any amount of grace they will believe and repent. Also, are you suggesting that man acted freely?

God in his sovereignty has decreed that everything will work out according to his plan. He works all things according to thepurpose of his will. He takes what is evil destroys it and makes good come from it. The arminians were calvinists who made salvation contingent upon the plans of man. So their theology has some truth to it, but is just very inconsistant.

No. The Arminians believe that God is so loving He wouldn't force people to sin and punish them for it and that Christ's death provided grace for all men and God has predestined and elected those whom He foreknew. The Calvinist idea of sovereignty is what is inconsistent. And I'm even finding it out as you talk about it that there is no consistency in what you believe. That is, you're somehow a mixture between Calvinist and Arminian.

You are a very confused young man. I recommend you find a good Baptist Church and sit under the instruction of a pastor.

Confused? Well, yes, confused by Calvinist inconsistent logic. I don't find any consistency in you saying that God is absolutely sovereign but did not decree sin and then completely teach a doctrine contrary to Calvin that Christ's death provided grace to the world, but more grace to the elect. This is not what Calvin taught at all.

At any rate, I've sat under a Pastor who came from John MacArthur's church who would probably be considered by you as a biblical Pastor. He didn't help me at all. He actually taught a very works based salvation, and when I didn't understand salvation a group of guys came to rebuke me telling me I understood it, and ultimately left me in tears. I won't be making that mistake again, and trust me... finding a decent church where I moved is near impossible. It's all liberal theology, or "reformed" churches who follow Calvin, yet ironically believe you can lose your salvation.

Believe me. I wish I could find a decent church. I've been searching for a decent one for about 9 months now. But when Pastors are either liberal, emergent, confused, or taking verses out of context to prove their point, it's quite impossible. Maybe I'm just picky, but I can't find one for the life of me.

God has commanded that everyone repent. Everyone has the free will to repent. However they make decisions according to their nature so only the regenerate actually do repent. God is not obligated to save anyone.

Again, this isn't what Calvin taught. Calvin taught that Christ has already redeemed His elect and that their repentance and faith are fruits of salvation. That the elect were regenerated before faith. And that man has absolutely no will to repent unless God force them.

God, is not indirectly a sinner. God is perfect. He allowed man to get himself into a mess. When we say allowed we mean he didn't prevent man from sinning because he allowed man to chose his own path.

This is an Arminian view, not a Calvinist view.

God gave clear instructions on what to do man had the ability to chose not to go against God but did it anyway.

Again, an Arminian view.

God then rescued some men from the mess. He did this based on his own choice. The rest of the men he gives justice for what they have done.

This sounds like a Calvinist view, but I'm going to clarify the difference so I understand what you are saying. The Calvinist view is that God has absolutely decreed all men to sin, that God will provides absolutely with no grace but to a small select few, and has absolutely decreed most men to go to Hell. The Arminian view is that God allowed men to sin, that God has provided sufficient grace for all men to come to Christ, and has absolutely decreed the faithless to go to Hell.

So, I agree with your statement, but probably on different terms than you meant it. Again, most of this confusion is semantics.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I rely on the bible, history, education, confessions, and conviction before I share a view with you. I am here as a christian to share my views. I'm not here to "teach" you. I'm just giving you the answer I know is correct. I don't have one smidgeon of a shadow of a doubt in my mind that the saved are eternally secure in Christ and cannot lose their salvation. To me it is a hill to die on and a pillar of the christian faith. Non-negotiable.





No it isn't. He is actually talking about Jacob and Esau themselves. He uses this as an illustration about election.




If God loved everyone he would save everyone. When the time is right the Holy Spirit regenerates a elect person and that person repents and believes. God loves the elect from all over the world, not just Jews.



That's because you know it is absurd to say that God loves the souls in hell. That position is not defendable Hell exisiting with people in it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't love everyone, just the elect.



You are arguing against the eternal security of the believer. We have this whole thread as an example. You obviously believe man who has once been saved can then reject God and become unsaved. You believe that salvation is dependent upon the decision of man and not of God. Your posts all speak for themselves. This is what I have gleaned from your posts. If that is not true state your position clearly and quite making such a fuss.

The philosophy presented in this post is not new; it was first presented in the 16th century through deductive logic based upon a false premise—that false premise being that God is absolutely sovereign—a premise that directly contradicts literally thousand of passages in the Bible in which God, though Mosses, Joshua, a prophet, His own Son, or someone else, instructs people to do or not to do this or that in order to be in God’s will, and the people who had been instructed chose to sin instead of obeying the instruction. If God were absolutely sovereign, sinning would be impossible.


Jesus was very much aware of the danger of deductive logic based upon a false premise. In John 9:13-16 we read,

13. They *brought to the Pharisees the man who was formerly blind.
14. Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
15. Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
16. Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them. (NASB, 1995)

In John 10:37-38 we read,

37. “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38. but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” (NASB, 1995)

In John 9:16 we find two different groups of Pharisees who took two different views of Jesus:

The first group took a deductive view: “This man is not from God” (conclusion), because He does not keep the Sabbath (premise).

The second group took an inductive view: “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs (data)?”

The first group came to a radically wrong conclusion because of their false premise. The second group made an intelligent inference from the data as a whole. In John 10:38, Jesus asked the Jews to believe the works that He did, that is, that they believe the data as a whole, and thereby understand that the Father was in Him, and He in the Father. Jesus asked the Jews to use inductive logic so that they would arrive at the correct understanding of Him. If we today are to arrive at a correct understanding of God, we must believe the data as a whole and use inductive logic rather than believe only a tiny fraction of the data and use deductive logic.

Deductive logic resulted in the crucifixion of the Christ; inductive logic resulted in the Christian faith.

Inductive thinking is also called objective or analytical thinking. Deductive thinking is also called subjective or synthetic thinking. Let us be objective and analytical in our thinking so that we will come to the correct understanding of God and salvation by grace through faith.
 
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DD2008

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So, I agree with your statement, but probably on different terms than you meant it. Again, most of this confusion is semantics.

You are overcomplicating things a bit by trying hard to lable everything. Settle down a bit and take things slow. Traditional Arminians and Calvinists are very similar in may areas as they all originate in the same tree. Stop worrying about that, you're going to go insane. Remeber the point of the thread is eternal security. All of these other topics can go on for a very long time in threads of their own.

Here is my statement:

1. God is sovereign.
2. God has elected some men to salvation and passed over others.
3. Those God has elected to salvation will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, Then they will repent and have faith in Christ.
4. God is the one who keeps the saved saved. So when one is saved he is saved forever because God wants him to be saved.
5. There are some who say they are saved but are not. That is why the bible gives so many examples of what to look for, how to make one's calling and election sure. In other words, the saved meet biblical criteria or they aren't saved. Those who do meet biblical criteria are saved and always will be. These things are written so that the saved will know they are saved.

You seem to have been confused by some who may have accused God of tyrany in sovereignty. If that is the case please check out the essay below by Dr. Sproul:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Foreordination to Reprobation
In spite of the distinction of positive-negative with respect to the mode of God's activity toward the elect and the reprobate, we are left with the thorny question of God predestinating the reprobate. If God in any sense predestines or foreordains reprobation, doesn't this make the rejection of Christ by the reprobate absolutely certain and inevitable? And if the reprobate's reprobation is certain in light of predestination, doesn't this make God responsible for the sin of the reprobate? We must answer the first question in the affirmative, and the second in the negative.
If God foreordains anything, it is absolutely certain that what He foreordains will come to pass. The purpose of God can never be frustrated. Even God's foreknowledge or prescience makes future events certain with respect to time. That is to say, if God knows on Tuesday that I will drive to Pittsburgh on Friday, then there is no doubt that, come Friday, I will drive to Pittsburgh. Otherwise God's knowledge would have been in error. Yet, there is a significant difference between God's knowing that I would drive to Pittsburgh and God's ordaining that I would do so. Theoretically He could know of a future act without ordaining it, but He could not ordain it without knowing what it is that He is ordaining. But in either case, the future event would be certain with respect to time and the knowledge of God.
Luther, in discussing the traitorous act of Judas, says:
Have I not put on record in many books that I am talking about necessity of immutability?I know that the Father begets willingly, and that Judas betrayed Christ willingly. My point is that this act of the will in Judas was certainly and infallibly bound to take place, if God foreknew it. That is to say (if my meaning is not yet grasped), I distinguish two necessities: one I call necessity of force (necessitatem violentam),referring to action; the other I call necessity of infallibility (necessitatem infallibilem),referring to time. Let him who hears me understand that I am speaking of the latter, not the former; that is, I am not discussing whether Judas became a traitor willingly or unwillingly, but whether it was infallibly bound to come to pass that Judas should willingly betray Christ at a time predetermined by God.3
We see then, that what God knows in advance comes to pass by necessity or infallibly or necessity of immutability. But what about His foreordaining or predestinating what comes to pass? If God foreordains reprobation does this not obliterate the distinction between positive-negative and involve a necessity of force?If God foreordains reprobation does this not mean that God forces, compels, or coerces the reprobate to sin? Again the answer must be negative.
If God, when He is decreeing reprobation, does so in consideration of the reprobate's being already fallen, then He does not coerce him to sin. To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin. If the decree of reprobation were made without a view to the fall, then the objection to double predestination would be valid and God would be properly charged with being the author of sin. But Reformed theologians have been careful to avoid such a blasphemous notion. Berkouwer states the boundaries of the discussion clearly:
On the one hand, we want to maintain the freedom of God in election, and on the other hand, we want to avoid any conclusion which would make God the cause of sin and unbelief.4
God's decree of reprobation, given in light of the fall, is a decree to justice, not injustice. In this view the biblical a priori that God is neither the cause nor the author of sin is safeguarded. Turrettini says, "We have proved the object of predestination to be man considered as fallen, sin ought necessarily to be supposed as the condition in him who is reprobated, no less than him who is elected."5 He writes elsewhere:
The negative act includes two, both preterition, by which in the election of some as well to glory as to grace, he neglected and slighted others, which is evident from the event of election, and negative desertion, by which he left them in the corrupt mass and in their misery; which, however, is as to be understood, 1. That they are not excepted from the laws of common providence, but remain subject to them, nor are immediately deprived of all God's favor, but only of the saving and vivifying which is the fruit of election, 2. That preterition and desertion; not indeed from the nature of preterition and desertion itself, and the force of the denied grace itself, but from the nature of the corrupt free will, and the force of corruption in it; as he who does not cure the disease of a sick man, is not the cause per se of the disease, nor of the results flowing from it; so sins are the consequents, rather than the effects of reprobation, necessarily bringing about the futurition of the event, but yet not infusing nor producing the wickedness.6
The importance of viewing the decree of reprobation in light of the fall is seen in the on-going discussions between Reformed theologians concerning infra- and supra-lapsarianism. Both viewpoints include the fall in God's decree. Both view the decree of preterition in terms of divine permission. The real issue between the positions concerns the logical order of the decrees. In the supralapsarian view the decree of election and reprobation is logically prior to the decree to permit the fall. In the infralapsarian view the decree to permit the fall is logically prior to the decree to election and reprobation.
Though this writer favors the infralapsarian view along the lines developed by Turrettini, it is important to note that both views see election and reprobation in light of the fall and avoid the awful conclusion that God is the author of sin. Both views protect the boundaries Berkouwer mentions.
Only in a positive-positive schema of predestination does double-predestination leave us with a capricious deity whose sovereign decrees manifest a divine tyranny. Reformed theology has consistently eschewed such a hyper-supralapsarianism. Opponents of Calvinism, however, persistently caricature the straw man of hyper-supralapsarianism, doing violence to the Reformed faith and assaulting the dignity of God's sovereignty.



Link: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
 
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DD2008

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If God were absolutely sovereign, sinning would be impossible.

That is false. God who is absolutley sovereign has allowed man the free will to sin and has promised that he will ultimately destroy it. He has done this to show his elect the riches of his grace in sending Christ to die for their sins and adopt them into his family even though they deserved death.

In other words, God in his wisdom knows that it is good that sin exist for awhile because the destruction of sin is a great work.

2 Samuel 7:22 NIV
“How great you are, Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
 
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Hupomone10

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Sovereign is who God is. It is the most basic fundamental of scripture.
No, brother, your post is wrong yet again. This is becoming common place. When God wanted to pick an attribute to describe His nature, He picked love; but it seems to be the one many 5-pointers, if you are the norm, do not understand except in a humanistic mind-set.

1 John 4:8, 16
8 God is love.

16 God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Some apparently try to rewrite the scriptures to support their obsession with one attribute of God so that it says,

"God is sovereign, and the one who abides in sovereignty abides in God, and God abides in him."


(DD2008) If you don't have assurance you don't really believe.
(Hupomone10) Don't really believe what?
(DD2008) That you are saved. If you don't trust Jesus has saved you, then you don't believe you are saved. That means you don't have saving faith. It's that simple.
I will take it that the "you" is speaking generically and not to me personally, since I established back in post #90 & #114 that I believe in Christ and have had assurance of salvation for many years.
I have accepted and moved beyond God's acceptance of me in Christ and eternal security so long that I no longer have any references on it on my shelf (most of mine are books, not internet.)
(#114) I'm very assured of my salvation in Christ, and I have never to my knowledge had to think of God's sovereignty to come to that.God is sovereign, no doubt; and that is not in dispute, not to me.

And, as I have said, I haven't for a long time had any doubts about my acceptance in Christ nor my assurance of eternal life forever with Him. It comes from His Word and the fact that I have responded to Christ in faith exactly as His Word says.

He is sovereign, but my assurance is through His Word.

Sovereignty alone - the fact that God is sovereign over creation and events - gives no assurance unless one assumes they are elect. That is an assumption, not faith in Christ as Savior and payment for sin.

That would be fine if one knew they were elected; but that is a subjective mental assumption. One doesn't wake up one day and have this epiphany, "hey, I'm one of the elect!" and then come to saving faith. And God doesn't tap you on the shoulder and say "hey, you're one of My elect." It would be wonderful if He did, but instead He asks us to receive His Son in faith.

One knows he is elect because he believes in Christ. If you're elect, you believe. If you believe, you're elect.

 
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PrincetonGuy

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Sovereign is who God is. It is the most basic fundamental of scripture.


Some early Reformers became obsessed with the sovereignty of God and became so fixated upon that one single attribute that they nearly lost sight of the multitude of God’s other attributes, including His love for all of mankind, and the grace and mercy that He extends to all who choose to believe in His Son.

God is also holy, just and righteous—and He does not allow any man to sin or disobey Him. In accord with His sovereign choice, He gave man the freedom to choose righteousness or sin, but he never allowed, or gave permission to, anyone to sin. Indeed, that which God allows is not sin.
 
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Hupomone10

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FaceofBear,
You said several on here are hyper or high calvinist. I think you have been proven right.

Hyper is as hyper says.


In other words, God in his wisdom knows that it is good that sin exist for awhile
That needs no comment; but thanks for identifying your position.

For the record and as most Baptists know, it was before sin was introduced into the world that God said "it is good."

Blessings to all,
H.
 
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Hupomone10

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Some early Reformers became obsessed with the sovereignty of God and became so fixated upon that one single attribute that they nearly lost sight of the multitude of God’s other attributes, including His love for all of mankind, and the grace and mercy that He extends to all who choose to believe in His Son.
Amen!
 
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DD2008

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No, brother, your post is wrong yet again.


BibleGateway - Quick search: sovereign


I will take it that the "you" is speaking generically and not to me personally, since I established back in post #90 & #114 that I believe in Christ and have had assurance of salvation for many years.


Then why are you arguing against eternal security.

Sovereignty alone - the fact that God is sovereign over creation and events - gives no assurance unless one assumes they are elect. That is an assumption, not faith in Christ as Savior and payment for sin.

It is not an assumption at all. If it faith in Christ. The sovereign God said that those who have faith in Christ are saved. So....they are.


One knows he is elect because he believes in Christ. If you're elect, you believe. If you believe, you're elect.

As I have said many times I agree with that.
 
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Hupomone10

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God is not the "author" of sin. He allowed sin to happen and he decreed it will be destroyed.

God is perfect. He allowed man to get himself into a mess. When we say allowed we mean he didn't prevent man from sinning because he allowed man to chose his own path.
This is in utter disagreement with the posts previously made regarding sovereignty of God. According to other posts, God doesn't "allow." He sovereignly works all things according to the council of His will (Eph 1:11). For any interested, if they look up the word "works" they will find it is the same word used when Paul says in Eph 2:2 "according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

You are a very confused young man. I recommend you find a good Baptist Church and sit under the instruction of a pastor.

FaceofBear,

He said a good Baptist Church; so could I suggest that you stay away from "Reformed" Baptist Churches? And you will be mainstream if you do. This is still a very great minority in Baptist circles that believe this deterministic point of view; at least in the largest denom (SBC) I know that is true (see graphic).
122313d1280006557-so-bapt-5-points.jpg


Bear, you know me better than any on here and know what I truly believe. So, you also can tell by the demeanor and false accusations of things others supposedly believe that most of this camp have nothing to offer you in your quest for being conformed to the image of Christ. It is a foreign concept; they know mostly doctrine, not "faith working through love."

I would like to suggest in the mean time while without a church, to go to our website, the Bible Church I attend. I'll email the site name to you. You can check out what they believe there and hear sermons. If you don't like it, no harm done.

The preaching is consistently the best I've encountered in my 32 years of walking with the Lord. Not the best I've heard; just the best by far that I've sat under. And you will not find the head pastor and associate pastor obsessing on one attribute of God to the exclusion of the others.


p.s.- this has been interesting and informative. I've been accused of not believing in hell, not having assurance of salvation and ergo not having saving faith, not believing in the sovereignty of God, believing God's election can be changed by the will of man, and I suppose several others. I'm losing track! :D The post-ers obsessed with sovereignty to the exclusion of other of God's attributes have consistently failed to make their case by taking scriptures out of context and often scriptures that don't say at all what they placed them in as a proof-text for, and resorting to posting long dissertations from 5-Point calvinist teachers to support their positions that they cannot defend from scripture alone.

I haven't been here much in a while, and the spirit of high and hyper 5-pt calvinism (and high arminianism) proves to still be every bit what I remembered it to be from before - accuse people of things they don't believe, take scripture out of context, and mean-spirited responses of "false doctrine, "heresy", "you are wrong," etc. Although I am definitely NOT one to be an example of humility; this trip and the posts I've read reaffirm to me that a high and hyper calvinist or arminian perspective IMHO encourages intellectual pride, and doesn't even remotely understand humility or teachability, the essence of what it means to be a disciple. We are always a witness, either positively or negatively. I am happy to be a Baptist in the middle of those two extremes.

I encourage you, FaceofBear, on your quest. Listen to both sides if it's scriptural, and by all means cultivate the practice of walking in the Spirit and listening to Him.

DeaconDean, DD2008, PrincetonGuy,
Try not to let discussions with disagreements push you farther than you want to be. With our unredeemed flesh, these things tend to act like a pendulum and push each person farther than they would ordinarily be and to say things they would not say in another context. DD2008, I particularly notice this in your posts to me. I try to be wary of this, but if I've done the same, please forgive me and understand that the flesh is incredibly deceitful.

Blessings,
H.
 
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DD2008

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Some early Reformers became obsessed with the sovereignty of God and became so fixated upon that one single attribute that they nearly lost sight of the multitude of God’s other attributes, including His love for all of mankind, and the grace and mercy that He extends to all who choose to believe in His Son.

God is also holy, just and righteous—and He does not allow any man to sin or disobey Him. In accord with His sovereign choice, He gave man the freedom to choose righteousness or sin, but he never allowed, or gave permission to, anyone to sin. Indeed, that which God allows is not sin.

God allowed Adam the freedom to choose. He made Adam a good creature with the ability to choose. Adam chose wrong. Adam was the caretaker of all creation, so he , all of his offspring and everything under Adam's care was cursed. That's why things die. God chose to allow that to happen and it is better that it happened than if it didn't because now God has shown us the riches of his grace through Jesus Christ. God didn't cause Adam to sin, Adam sinned because he wanted to sin. God knew he would sin, but didn't cause him to sin. Election to salvation is a choice on the part of God to either save a sinful man by giving him a new nature or to leave him in his sins. The price for sins was paid for by Christ. Those who are elected to salvation are saved because God regenerated them so that they could repent and believe in Christ their savior. The knowledge that Christ has saved a person is a gift of God.
 
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RobertZ

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One knows he is elect because he believes in Christ. If you're elect, you believe. If you believe, you're elect.



Its really that simple? I need to think on that for a bit because when I read what you just posted I felt like I might have some hope, even if its very small.
 
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DD2008

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This is in utter disagreement with the posts previously made regarding sovereignty of God. According to other posts, God doesn't "allow." He sovereignly works all things according to the council of His will (Eph 1:11). For any interested, if they look up the word "works" they will find it is the same word used when Paul says in Eph 2:2 "according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."




Yes God sovereignly works all things according to the purpose of his will. There are many tools he uses to accomplish what his wishes:

Isaiah 55:11 NIV
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.



FaceofBear,

He said a good Baptist Church; so could I suggest that you stay away from "Reformed" Baptist Churches? And you will be mainstream if you do. This is still a very great minority in Baptist circles that believe this deterministic point of view; at least in the largest denom (SBC) I know that is true (see graphic).

I'm a member of a Southern Baptist Church. I highly recommend the denomination.


I would like to suggest in the mean time while without a church, to go to our website, the Bible Church I attend. I'll email the site name to you. You can check out what they believe there and hear sermons. If you don't like it, no harm done.

So you've been sitting here the whole time arguing against baptist doctrine and you're not even a baptist? That makes a lot more sense now.


I encourage you, FaceofBear, on your quest. Listen to both sides if it's scriptural, and by all means cultivate the practice of walking in the Spirit and listening to Him.

I encourage this as well. You'll find out God is sovereign if you keep your ears and eyes open.

DeaconDean, DD2008, PrincetonGuy,
Try not to let discussions with disagreements push you farther than you want to be. With our unredeemed flesh, these things tend to act like a pendulum and push each person farther than they would ordinarily be and to say things they would not say in another context. DD2008, I particularly notice this in your posts to me. I try to be wary of this, but if I've done the same, please forgive me and understand that the flesh is incredibly deceitful.


It's not about you. I'm simply arguing for the eternal security of the believer.
 
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DD2008

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Its really that simple? I need to think on that for a bit because when I read what you just posted I felt like I might have some hope, even if its very small.

It really is that simple. If you really have faith in Christ you are elect and eternally secure.
 
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faceofbear

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I believe God is sovereign. Just not deterministic. If one spends anytime studying Arminius you'll find God's providence and sovereignty all over and most emphatically. In fact, Arminius was borderline deterministic! As was John Wesley. John Wesley taught what Arminius taught and yet many called John Wesley a confused Calvinist! The difference was neither of them could bring themselves to admit to God efficaciously causing and willing sin which demeans the character of God making God the only sinner to exist. It's just that Arminianism is accused of pelegianism, and many self-proclaimed Arminians are pelagian, so it's no wonder people are confused about the difference. And with the liberalization and humanistic trend spilled across many Arminian denominations (which are actually now more pelagian than anything!) and churches, it's not a surprise at all that people think Arminians deny God's sovereignty.

I believe in the sovereignty of God, just not the determinism of God. Show me where in the Bible it describes God as the deterministic God as opposed to the sovereign God. The two are worlds apart.

Again, I can't raise my arm or post this message without God's sovereign concurrence, but God is not forcing me to post this message.
 
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Hupomone10

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[/size][/font]I'm a member of a Southern Baptist Church. I highly recommend the denomination.
Being a member of an SBC doesn't make you theologically a Baptist.

So you've been sitting here the whole time arguing against baptist doctrine and you're not even a baptist? That makes a lot more sense now.
Please see the last paragraph of my last post. For my Baptist beliefs, see post #87. Having an alzheimer moment?

Post #87 "I'm a Baptist presently attending a Bible church."

I encourage this as well. You'll find out God is sovereign if you keep your ears and eyes open.
Condescending, and ignored. In keeping with my observations of this perspective in my last post.
It's not about you. I'm simply arguing for the eternal security of the believer.
So am I, I scripturally, you theologically.
 
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DD2008

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I believe God is sovereign. Just not deterministic. If one spends anytime studying Arminius you'll find God's providence and sovereignty all over and most emphatically. In fact, Arminius was borderline deterministic! As was John Wesley. John Wesley taught what Arminius taught and yet many called John Wesley a confused Calvinist! The difference was neither of them could bring themselves to admit to God efficaciously causing and willing sin which demeans the character of God making God the only sinner to exist. It's just that Arminianism is accused of pelegianism, and many self-proclaimed Arminians are pelagian, so it's no wonder people are confused about the difference. And with the liberalization and humanistic trend spilled across many Arminian denominations (which are actually now more pelagian than anything!) and churches, it's not a surprise at all that people think Arminians deny God's sovereignty.

I believe in the sovereignty of God, just not the determinism of God. Show me where in the Bible it describes God as the deterministic God as opposed to the sovereign God. The two are worlds apart.

Again, I can't raise my arm or post this message without God's sovereign concurrence, but God is not forcing me to post this message.

Ephesians 1:4 NIV
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

:)
 
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