Eternal Security

[JM]

No. I visited a Divine Liturgy and it was great but I still reside in Baptistown just outside Protestantville..

I had to ask...when I made the post you had a Bible = an Eastern Orthodox cross in your sig.

Where did it go?

 

[MrJim]

I had to ask...when I made the post you had a Bible = an Eastern Orthodox cross in your sig.

Where did it go?

replaced by the universal symbol of frustration~~on a spiritual journey fraught with exasperation...:o

 

[DD2008]

replaced by the universal symbol of frustration~~on a spiritual journey fraught with exasperation...:o

Well, stop worrying about what people say and look to Christ. Life is all about a relationship with Christ. Do you know Christ? Spend some time alone with Christ in the bible and prayer. The "truth" isn't in a denomination it is in Christ. He is sufficient to meet all our needs.

Please review this clip that JM posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqcPqtfU-eo

 

[JM]

Can we apply the term F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to those that believe you can lose salvation? (kidding)

I deny OSAS but believe in the classic Prot expression of the P.

 

[MrJim]

Can we apply the term F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to those that believe you can lose salvation? (kidding)

I deny OSAS but believe in the classic Prot expression of the P.

What is your definition of each? ~We arminian types use all three (OSAS, ES, P) interchangeably..

 

[MrJim]

Well, stop worrying about what people say and look to Christ. Life is all about a relationship with Christ. Do you know Christ? Spend some time alone with Christ in the bible and prayer. The "truth" isn't in a denomination it is in Christ. He is sufficient to meet all our needs.

Please review this clip that JM posted:

YouTube - We Don't Need Religion, We Need Jesus

Saw it, don't know who the guy is but I'm sure he has the "right" way of doing it. Another fellow with the "true" grasp of faith...genuine "pure" understanding of Christianity. Still comes down to his opinion..and everyone has one.

Been there, done that...

 

[dies-l]

I am not sure if it is OSAS that I find lacking or whether it is merely the way it is applied in some places. Some churches say that all you need to do is say the sinner's prayer and, if you really mean it, you are saved. That version of OSAS is flatly contrary to both Scripture and common sense. Others in the OSAS circle say that if a person is truly saved, that person will not fall away. While I can agree with this, I am with Big Drew in that I don't see this as materially different from the Free Will Baptist idea that a saved person can lose his salvation. They sound very much like two ways of saying the same thing and then arguing over who is saying it better. In the end, I think the OSAS debate is one of those things that, by and large, is a waste of time, a debate over a triviality. However, I would tend to phrase my position more along the lines of the FWB crowd, that one can be saved and later choose not to be. But, this assumes concepts like free choice vs. God's sovereignty and predestination, which takes us into another debate that is not worth getting into here.

 

[dies-l]

Well, stop worrying about what people say and look to Christ. Life is all about a relationship with Christ. Do you know Christ? Spend some time alone with Christ in the bible and prayer. The "truth" isn't in a denomination it is in Christ. He is sufficient to meet all our needs.

Please review this clip that JM posted:

YouTube - We Don't Need Religion, We Need Jesus

I could only watch a few minutes of the video. What I did see was based upon such a blatant strawman argument that I would say that Driscoll's teaching here is misinformed at best, if not absolute rubbish. "Religion" is never described in Scripture as opposed to Christ. What he is calling "religion" sounds a lot more like legalism, in which case I would have an easier time accepting it. I just don't understand why "religion" has become such a dirty word in 21st Century evangelical Christianity, when the Bible clearly differentiates between religion that is acceptable to God (loving your neighbor and guarding oneself against impurity) and religion that is not (petty squabbling, mistreating the poor and the vulnerable, etc).

ETA: To be fair, I went back and watched the rest of the video. While I agree with the larger point that he is trying to make, he is betraying a significant misunderstanding of Scripture and of the English language to refer to the problem as "religion". Religion is neither inherently good or bad, and genuine biblical Christianity is no more or less "religion" than the legalistic Pharisaical Judaism of Saul. So, I guess my dispute is more about word usage than about the bigger message. Nonetheless, we need to be careful in how we use language to avoid unnecessary confusion, offense, or heresy.

 

[DD2008]

I could only watch a few minutes of the video. What I did see was based upon such a blatant strawman argument that I would say that Driscoll's teaching here is misinformed at best, if not absolute rubbish. "Religion" is never described in Scripture as opposed to Christ. What he is calling "religion" sounds a lot more like legalism, in which case I would have an easier time accepting it. I just don't understand why "religion" has become such a dirty word in 21st Century evangelical Christianity, when the Bible clearly differentiates between religion that is acceptable to God (loving your neighbor and guarding oneself against impurity) and religion that is not (petty squabbling, mistreating the poor and the vulnerable, etc).

ETA: To be fair, I went back and watched the rest of the video. While I agree with the larger point that he is trying to make, he is betraying a significant misunderstanding of Scripture and of the English language to refer to the problem as "religion". Religion is neither inherently good or bad, and genuine biblical Christianity is no more or less "religion" than the legalistic Pharisaical Judaism of Saul. So, I guess my dispute is more about word usage than about the bigger message. Nonetheless, we need to be careful in how we use language to avoid unnecessary confusion, offense, or heresy.

Basically he is just saying that religion is man made, but a relationship with Christ is real and divine.

People make up rules to follow. That is religion. A relationship whith Christ is the only thing that really matters in reality so that is not religion it is a family relationship. We are heirs. We earn nothing we are given everything.

 

[MrJim]

Basically he is just saying that religion is man made, but a relationship with Christ is real and divine.

People make up rules to follow. That is religion. A relationship whith Christ is the only thing that really matters in reality so that is not religion it is a family relationship. We are heirs. We earn nothing we are given everything.

I expect though that his version of a "relationship with Christ" is going to look evangelical/calvinist in nature...though it won't be "religious", right?

 

[DeaconDean]

I would tend to phrase my position more along the lines of the FWB crowd, that one can be saved and later choose not to be.

If this is the case, "one can be saved and later choose not to be" were they ever really saved in the first place?

If this is the case, "one can be saved and later choose not to be" then Jesus was severely lacking and not quite as powerful as we think. Did Jesus not say:

"those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;" -Jn. 17:12 (KJV)

And what a weak and powerless God we serve if He is able to lose one soul that is in His hand:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

What a weak and powerless God we serve if any man, including ourselves, are able to take ourselves out of God's caring and loving hands.

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold...Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." -Mt. 13:3-8; 18-23 (KJV)

If: "one can be saved and later choose not to be" then were they ever really saved to begin with? No. It is my opinion, and it is my belief that those people fall into the category of the seed that fell either by the wayside, or on stoney places, or among the thorns.

For if a person is truly saved, they will persevere until the end.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the authorhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/hebrews/passage.aspx?q=hebrews+12:1-15#fn-descriptionAnchor-a and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth , and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth . If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence : shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ? For they verily for a few days chastened us afterhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/hebrews/passage.aspx?q=hebrews+12:1-15#fn-descriptionAnchor-b their own pleasure ; but he for our profit , that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby . Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down , and the feeble knees;" -Heb. 12:1-12 (KJV)

That is exactly what Baptists from the founding of America have believed:

1. Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by the Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit to immortality)1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon: notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them,2 yet it is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of Life from all eternity.3
   
2. This perseverance of the saints, depends not upon their own free will but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God wthin them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
   
3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein;9 whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.14

Footnotes:

1. Jn 10:28-29; Php 1:6; 2Ti 2:19; 1Jn 2:19.
2. Ps 89:31-32; 1Co 11:32.
3. Mal 3:6.
4. Ro 8:30; 9:11,16.
5. Ro 5:9-10; Jn 14:19.
6. Heb 6:17-18.
7. 1Jn 3:9.
8. Jer 32:40.
9. Mt 26:70,72,74.
10. Isa 64:5,9; Eph 4:30.
11. Ps 51:10,12.
12. Ps 32:3-4.
13. 2Sa 12:14.
14. Lk 22:32,61-62. ​

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter XVII, Of the Perseverance of the Saints

philadelphia confession-chapter 17

Baptists have believed from the founding of this country, that those who are truly saved to begin with, may backslide, bring shame upon the church, Christ, and God, but in the end, God will keep them and not lose a single one.

That is what I believe. And that is what I will preach.

Same as my Baptist fore-fathers.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[MrJim]

I am not sure if it is OSAS that I find lacking or whether it is merely the way it is applied in some places. Some churches say that all you need to do is say the sinner's prayer and, if you really mean it, you are saved. That version of OSAS is flatly contrary to both Scripture and common sense. Others in the OSAS circle say that if a person is truly saved, that person will not fall away. While I can agree with this, I am with Big Drew in that I don't see this as materially different from the Free Will Baptist idea that a saved person can lose his salvation. They sound very much like two ways of saying the same thing and then arguing over who is saying it better. In the end, I think the OSAS debate is one of those things that, by and large, is a waste of time, a debate over a triviality. However, I would tend to phrase my position more along the lines of the FWB crowd, that one can be saved and later choose not to be. But, this assumes concepts like free choice vs. God's sovereignty and predestination, which takes us into another debate that is not worth getting into here.

Yup~it can come to a time where one chooses to turn away. In this case God did not "lose" him, nor did anything happen that salvation "failed"~~it is simply an apostasy, a turning away to another direction, a shipwreck of faith.

 

[dies-l]

If this is the case, "one can be saved and later choose not to be" were they ever really saved in the first place?

If this is the case, "one can be saved and later choose not to be" then Jesus was severely lacking and not quite as powerful as we think. Did Jesus not say:

"those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;" -Jn. 17:12 (KJV)

And what a weak and powerless God we serve if He is able to lose one soul that is in His hand:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

What a weak and powerless God we serve if any man, including ourselves, are able to take ourselves out of God's caring and loving hands.

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold...Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." -Mt. 13:3-8; 18-23 (KJV)

If: "one can be saved and later choose not to be" then were they ever really saved to begin with? No. It is my opinion, and it is my belief that those people fall into the category of the seed that fell either by the wayside, or on stoney places, or among the thorns.

For if a person is truly saved, they will persevere until the end.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the authorhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/hebrews/passage.aspx?q=hebrews+12:1-15#fn-descriptionAnchor-a and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth , and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth . If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence : shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ? For they verily for a few days chastened us afterhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/hebrews/passage.aspx?q=hebrews+12:1-15#fn-descriptionAnchor-b their own pleasure ; but he for our profit , that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby . Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down , and the feeble knees;" -Heb. 12:1-12 (KJV)

That is exactly what Baptists from the founding of America have believed:



The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter XVII, Of the Perseverance of the Saints

philadelphia confession-chapter 17

Baptists have believed from the founding of this country, that those who are truly saved to begin with, may backslide, bring shame upon the church, Christ, and God, but in the end, God will keep them and not lose a single one.

That is what I believe. And that is what I will preach.

Same as my Baptist fore-fathers.

God Bless

Till all are one.

In the parable of the sower, Jesus describes 4 different types of people, only one of whom, as I understand His teaching ultimately inherit eternal life. There is the seed sown on the wayside, which represents those who hear the Word and never act on it. There is the seed that is sown on the stony ground, which represents those who receive the word with gladness, but do not endure. There is the seed sown among the thorns, which represents those who receive the word, but it is choked out and never bears fruit. Then, there is the seed sown on good ground, which bears fruit.

What would you say of the the two middle camps (the seed sown on the stony ground and the seed sown among the thorns. Is Jesus talking here of people who were never saved? Is he speaking of people who are saved by ineffectual? Is he speaking of people losing their salvation? Or, is it something else altogether? And, if so please explain.

The reason I ask is that I have met more of these types of people in and out of the church than either of the other two groups. I tend to regard this mentality of one that is not reflective of salvation. However, I don't find it all that important to determine whether such people "lost" their salvation or whether they never were saved. All I know is that the common evangelical teaching that says if you sincerely receive Christ, even if only for a moment, you have salvation that will never be lost, gives a false assurance of salvation that causes some people to live of rebellion convinced nonetheless of their free pass to heaven.

 

[dies-l]

Basically he is just saying that religion is man made, but a relationship with Christ is real and divine.

People make up rules to follow. That is religion. A relationship whith Christ is the only thing that really matters in reality so that is not religion it is a family relationship. We are heirs. We earn nothing we are given everything.

I understand what he is saying, and I guess my only big disagreement with him is that his message is based upon a thoroughly unbiblical definition of "religion".

 

[His_disciple3]

We have the testimony of the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of Church history that prove that men who have been saved, born-again, and sanctified by the blood of Jesus have subsequently fallen away from the faith after years of faithful service, and have returned to their own vomit like a sow returns to wallowing in the mire. If we cannot know if a man is truly a saved Christian until he dies as a faithful Christian, there is no assurance of salvation for anyone. We, as Christians, are saved by grace through faith, but those Christians who fail to continue in that faith become severed from Christ and the life that is only found in Christ.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (NASB, 1995)

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB, 1995)

there are several verses in the Word that proves if we are saved, then we are saved, but there are many that thought they have been saved but were not.
Ephesians 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
this says after we have believed, nothing about after we have worked all our life, we are sealed with the promise of God. Promise a Covenant of God if we believe, He will save you , how long does this last until we break that faith, until we quit working for our salvation, man says this But God says: Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

so to seal something is to close it then you seal it, so if God has sealed our salvation when we believe then:
Revelation 3:7
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
KJV

Ok I am saved, I received the promise because of my faith, salvation is sealed until the day of redemption, I can't even open that, for I am included in the number; and no man openeth. I am in this number I am man and God has said I can't open what he has closed. if you say different then you raise yourself mightier than God.

we work out our salvation not work for our salvation,

Jonah 2:9
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
KJV

it is not of anything I have done least I boast, it is of the Lord!! anything that condradicts these verses are not the verses that contradict, for God is not the author of confusion. so it has to be man's intrepetation of others verses that contradict the Gospel. as V. Mcgee would say we just spell salvation different , you believe there is something you can do to earn salvation then you spell salvation: DO , I believe that Jesus has done all that needs to be done for my salvation so I spell salvation: DONE
done By the works and shed Blood of my Lord and Saviour, thank you Jesus Christ

 

[DeaconDean]

In the parable of the sower, Jesus describes 4 different types of people, only one of whom, as I understand His teaching ultimately inherit eternal life. There is the seed sown on the wayside, which represents those who hear the Word and never act on it. There is the seed that is sown on the stony ground, which represents those who receive the word with gladness, but do not endure. There is the seed sown among the thorns, which represents those who receive the word, but it is choked out and never bears fruit. Then, there is the seed sown on good ground, which bears fruit.

What would you say of the the two middle camps (the seed sown on the stony ground and the seed sown among the thorns. Is Jesus talking here of people who were never saved? Is he speaking of people who are saved by ineffectual? Is he speaking of people losing their salvation? Or, is it something else altogether? And, if so please explain.

The reason I ask is that I have met more of these types of people in and out of the church than either of the other two groups. I tend to regard this mentality of one that is not reflective of salvation. However, I don't find it all that important to determine whether such people "lost" their salvation or whether they never were saved. All I know is that the common evangelical teaching that says if you sincerely receive Christ, even if only for a moment, you have salvation that will never be lost, gives a false assurance of salvation that causes some people to live of rebellion convinced nonetheless of their free pass to heaven.

"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." -Jas. 3:11-12 (KJV)

Can a person repent and claim to be saved all the while living as they once did?

In the parable of the sower, show me the fruits of the first three classes Jesus spoke of.

You can't.

However, you can see the fruits of the fourth class for Jesus said some bear 30 fold, some 60, and some a hundred.

While it is not for us to judge who is and who isn't saved, we can to a certain degree.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

Jesus said that we would know the saved from the unsaved by the fruits they bearm the way they walk, and the way they talk.

This is the conclusion of the whole, and a repetition of what is before said, the more to fix the rule of judgment upon their minds, and engage them to try men by their doctrines, and their doctrines by the standard of the Scriptures, and not believe every spirit; for with some care and diligence such persons may be detected, and the malignant influence of their ministry be prevented. The sum of the whole is, that ordinarily, and generally speaking, as men are, so are the doctrines they preach, and by them they may be known, and judged to be what they are. Christ here, and in the preceding verses, is speaking not of men of bad lives and conversations, who take upon them to teach others; for there is not so much reason to caution good men against these; they are easily detected, and generally discarded; but of men that put on sheep's clothing, who pretended to much holiness of life and conversation, and strictness of religion; and under that disguise delivered out the most corrupt and unwholesome doctrines; which tended greatly to depreciate him and his grace, and to do damage to the souls of men.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

If there is no fruits in their lives, no change from the old to the new, then the salvation of those individuals is "highly" suspect.

Here again, if you are turly saved, and Jesus has turned care of you over to His Father's hand, who, including you, can take themselves out of His hand?

If you were able to, logically, that would make you more powerful than God Himself.

In the case of backslidding, who does the Good Shepherd go looking for?

In the case of backslidding, who receives chastizing by God untilk they come back?

All this is addressed in the Philadelphia Baptist Confession.

James P. Boyce speaks on this well when he wrote:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

The first three classes in the parable of the sower were never really saved to begin with. We see no chastizing by God. We don't see the Good Shepherd going out to find the 100th sheep that went astray.

The last group, the seed that fell on good ground, were saved, and persevered and were kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

John Gill comments on 1 Tim. 1:19:

By "faith" is meant, not the grace of faith, but the doctrine of faith, a sense in which it is often used in this epistle; see 1Ti 3:9 and the "holding" of it does not intend a mere profession of it, and a retaining of that without wavering, which is to be done by all believers; but a holding it forth in the ministry of the word, in opposition to a concealing or dropping it, or any part of it; and a holding it fast, without wavering, and in opposition to a departure from it or any cowardice about it and against all posers: to which must be added, a good conscience; the conscience is not naturally good, but is defiled by sin; and that is only good, which is sprinkled by the blood of Christ, and thereby purged from dead works; the effect of which is an holy, upright, and becoming conversation; and which seems to be chiefly intended here, and particularly the upright conduct and behaviour of the ministers of the Gospel, in the faithful discharge of their work and office: see 2Co 1:12.

Which some having put away; that is, a good conscience; and which does not suppose that they once had one, since that may be put away which was never had: the Jews, who blasphemed and contradicted, and never received the word of God, are said to put it from them, Ac 13:46 where the same word is used as here; and signifies to refuse or reject anything with detestation and contempt: these men always had an abhorrence to a good conscience among men, and to a good life and conversation, the evidence of it; and at length threw off the mask, and dropped the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil conscience: though admitting it does suppose they once had a good conscience, it must be understood not of a conscience cleansed by the blood of Christ, but of a good conscience in external show only, or in comparison of what they afterwards appeared to have: and, besides, some men, destitute of the grace of God, may have a good conscience in some sense, or with respect to some particular facts, or to their general conduct and behaviour among men, as the Apostle Paul had while unregenerate, Ac 23:1 and which being acted against, or lost, is no instance of falling from the true grace of God, which this passage is sometimes produced in proof of:

concerning faith have made shipwreck; which designs not the grace, but the doctrine of faith, as before observed, which men may profess, and fall off from, and entirely drop and lose. Though supposing faith as a grace is meant, the phrase, "have made shipwreck of it", is not strong enough to prove the total and final falling away of true believers, could such be thought to be here meant; since persons may be shipwrecked, and not lost, the Apostle Paul was thrice shipwrecked, and each time saved; besides, as there is a true and unfeigned, so there is a feigned and counterfeit faith, which may be in persons who have no true grace, and may be shipwrecked, so as to be lost.

John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

Both John Gill and Arthur W. Pink comment that if these types of people, fall away, they had nothing to fall away from for they never had "it" to begin with.

This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name...Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Arthur W. Pink, Hebrews 6:4-6

24. Apostasy. Hebrews 6:4-6

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[dies-l]

"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." -Jas. 3:11-12 (KJV)

Can a person repent and claim to be saved all the while living as they once did?

In the parable of the sower, show me the fruits of the first three classes Jesus spoke of.

You can't.

However, you can see the fruits of the fourth class for Jesus said some bear 30 fold, some 60, and some a hundred.

While it is not for us to judge who is and who isn't saved, we can to a certain degree.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

Jesus said that we would know the saved from the unsaved by the fruits they bearm the way they walk, and the way they talk.



John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

If there is no fruits in their lives, no change from the old to the new, then the salvation of those individuals is "highly" suspect.

Here again, if you are turly saved, and Jesus has turned care of you over to His Father's hand, who, including you, can take themselves out of His hand?

If you were able to, logically, that would make you more powerful than God Himself.

In the case of backslidding, who does the Good Shepherd go looking for?

In the case of backslidding, who receives chastizing by God untilk they come back?

All this is addressed in the Philadelphia Baptist Confession.

James P. Boyce speaks on this well when he wrote:



The first three classes in the parable of the sower were never really saved to begin with. We see no chastizing by God. We don't see the Good Shepherd going out to find the 100th sheep that went astray.

The last group, the seed that fell on good ground, were saved, and persevered and were kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

John Gill comments on 1 Tim. 1:19:



John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

Both John Gill and Arthur W. Pink comment that if these types of people, fall away, they had nothing to fall away from for they never had "it" to begin with.



Arthur W. Pink, Hebrews 6:4-6

24. Apostasy. Hebrews 6:4-6

God Bless

Till all are one.

So, would it be fair to say that your position is that the seed on the thorns and the seed on the rocky ground represents people who were never really saved? If so, I don't think that to be an unreasonable position, even though I don't completely agree with it. The reason I ask is that there are different versions of OSAS. The version that I have a real problem with is the "say this prayer, and as long as you really mean it, then you are saved." My disagreement with the version of OSAS that I think you are talking about, the "if you fall away, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with", is more academic than anything. For the purposes of this thread, this is not the position that I am arguing against, and I am not really interested in arguing against that position, because I accept that it is a viable position.

 

[phoenixdem]

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[phoenixdem]

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[phoenixdem]

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Much of what you posted to be proof of losing salvation can be attributed to the Parable of the wheat and tares. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is also useful to remember. The Holy Bible also teaches about the Sovereignty of God and perseverance of the saints. Do your referenced verses talk about people losing their salvation or a temporary wandering through the wilderness like the Prodigal Son who is welcomed back after a time of sinning and squandering of his portion of the family wealth. Is the fatted calf killed for the wandering son or the son who stayed with his father?[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“"In the second Book of Timothy 2:18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."”

“Apparently people can have their faith destroyed? How come that wasn't mentioned in your Romans verse?”[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']It wasn’t mentioned in the Romans verse and mentioned in the second Book of Timothy because Paul had his purpose to fulfill in giving scripture and Timothy had his. We are to read all of the scripture, not one Book.

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I don’t think that John was confused. It wouldn’t have been John who was confused anyway as the Holy Scripture was given by God, not the individual writers of the Books of the Holy Bible. I have seen explanations of the Book of Revelations 22nd Chapter Verse 19 to include that these people aren’t saved but are those who intentionally pervert the meaning of the scripture. There are different versions of the Holy Bible being published now that seem to be good examples of twisting the scripture. Other commentaries don’t touch on your specific question about that verse. There are many verses that teach about the perseverance of the Saints and scripture doesn’t teach one thing in one place and the opposite in another place. God isn’t the author of confusion, right? Satan certainly is, but not God. If you want me to list those references for you, please let me know.[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“Apparently (in the Book of Romans Chapter 8 is a different Paul speaking than in the rest of the Epistles and Gospels. Remaining in Christs love is conditioned by abiding in Christ through faith -- as Paul said, IF you stand firm to what you first believed it is able to save you.”[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, I don’t think that Paul contradicted himself in any of his writings. I just happened to see that Peter endorsed the writings of Paul. I don’t think that Peter was confused nor was Paul. There was also a warning in Peter’s endorsement.[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']2nd Peter [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']14[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']15[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']And account that the [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']16[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']17[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Ye therefore, beloved, [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']401[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']18[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. [/FONT]
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[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']In Verse 17 above, does “ye fall from your own stedfastness” mean a loss of salvation or wandering through the wilderness on another trip as all of us do from time-to-time and God has to go looking for His lost sheep again? Sheep are very dumb and have to be led around by a Shepherd. God’s sheep have a good shepherd and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
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[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']These are the words of the Good Shepherd,[/FONT]
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[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']In the Book of John Verse [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']25[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, these bear witness of me. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']26[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']27[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']28[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']29[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']30[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']I and the Father are one.[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

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