eternal security, yea or ney?

[Andrew]

Lared,

You are a JW? Ok, I'm outta here.

anyway, u lost me when you talked abt the 144,000 fixed no. special elect, of which i presume you consider yourself to be one of the priviledged few.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I will write this out with premesis and a conclusion.

• 1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
• 2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
• 3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
• 4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)

• 5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.

cmon.. no takers on this one ?

 

[lared]

Andrew,
Please do not be afraid. We are peace loving and will not harm you. In fact, we opt to go to jail rather then to serve in the armies of the world.

No, I am not one of the 144,000 that the book of Revelation clearly talks about. I hope to be one of the millions that will inherit the earth, just as Jesus promised......Blessed are the meak for they shall inherit the earth.

Only 144,000 from among mankind are invited to heaven to rule with Jesus in his heavenly kingdom government that shall soon rule over the earth.

Isn't it obvious that man's governments cannot bring about true peace and security here on earth. That is why, we as Christians pray for God's kingdom (government) to come.....or in other words rule over us from heaven.

 

[Andrew]

Lared,

not afraid. just think JWs are vry off so it'll take a lot of tiring discussion to get back to basics first b4 we can even address the topic of the thread.

anyway I believe in eternal security.

 

[wblastyn]

so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

No, I meant people, who were Christians and aren't anymore because they don't believe in Jesus or whatever, gave their gift back to God. God doesn't force people into heaven.

 

[Andrew]

quote:
"so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

No, I meant people, who were Christians and aren't anymore because they don't believe in Jesus or whatever, gave their gift back to God. God doesn't force people into heaven."

well I was asking you wblastyn, not those people. If u believe its possible for them, then you shld also believe its poss for you to one day denounce Christ. so do u belive in your heart that u might just do it one day?

 

[suzie]

I have a question wblastyn. If you believe that you can lose your salvation that would mean that you have renounced Jesus and turned your back to God, right? How can you do that if when you are saved you no longer live, but Christ lives in you. If Christ is alive in us then how can we deny Christ?

 

[sola fide]

She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Thunderchild]

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!

Of course they didn't fall beyond recovery. If they repent they are recovered, same as for anyone else. Unrepentant people are not recovered.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Quite simple, isn't it? If your master is sin - you reap the reward of sin. If your master is Christ - you reap the reward of Christ.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)Rom 11:26 - 27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. God will not revoke his gifts and calling - all Israel will be saved when God takes away their sins. Again, same as for anyone else... Note that "pas" translated as "all" does not mean "every one."

"Pas" is used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts

 

- "of all sorts" is to be taken as representative samples of all levels of Jewish society. Christ saved some Pharisees, some prostitutes, some fishermen etc and so forth. Anyone of Israel will be saved when God takes away his sins.



3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)Agreed. "servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life" - well, loyal servants, anyway. Jesus did have a few things to say about unrighteous servants.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)mis-applied with regard to salvation at the individual level - this premise is based on what?


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.based on a false premise at point 4, therefore invalid. The "gift" is sanctification - the end result of sanctification is eternal life. Eternal life is not a gift of God, but results from the gift of God. And the gift of God, "sanctification," is bestowed upon whom? Those who remain in him.

This word "foreknowledge" is interesting - it is translated from "pro-ginosko" (compare pro-life, pro-active, arguments pro etc. It is the opposite of contra). Why are people trying to make it mean the same as would be meant by "pre-ginosko?"

 

[Andrew]

quote: "She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?"

amen! and a sheep cannot turn back into a goat or dog or pig -- one cannot reverse the greatest miracle and be UN-born-again.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "She has a great point. A true sheep cannot leave the flock, because the shephard will seek him each time he tries to go astray. I think it's important that we do not frustrate the grace of God. We should accept it for what it is, unmerited favor. If it's unearned, that how can we "earn" the loss of it?"

amen! and a sheep cannot turn back into a goat or dog or pig -- one cannot reverse the greatest miracle and be UN-born-again.

Hey Andrew, we agree!

 

[Hojo Hominygrits]

Andrew, it's nice to see another who understands what Paul was saying in Romans!! You are right on.

Romans: What a powerful book!

 

[Andrew]

"Hey Andrew, we agree!"

Dave, feel like giving you a kiss here but slapping you on the other healing/prosperity threads. *LOL*

thank God we agree on something.
btw: saw your cute tagline -- now now, you shldnt quote me out of context.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Of course they didn't fall beyond recovery. If they repent they are recovered, same as for anyone else. Unrepentant people are not recovered.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Quite simple, isn't it? If your master is sin - you reap the reward of sin. If your master is Christ - you reap the reward of Christ.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)Rom 11:26 - 27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. God will not revoke his gifts and calling - all Israel will be saved when God takes away their sins. Again, same as for anyone else... Note that "pas" translated as "all" does not mean "every one." - "of all sorts" is to be taken as representative samples of all levels of Jewish society. Christ saved some Pharisees, some prostitutes, some fishermen etc and so forth. Anyone of Israel will be saved when God takes away his sins.



3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)Agreed. "servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life" - well, loyal servants, anyway. Jesus did have a few things to say about unrighteous servants.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)mis-applied with regard to salvation at the individual level - this premise is based on what?


5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.based on a false premise at point 4, therefore invalid. The "gift" is sanctification - the end result of sanctification is eternal life. Eternal life is not a gift of God, but results from the gift of God. And the gift of God, "sanctification," is bestowed upon whom? Those who remain in him.

This word "foreknowledge" is interesting - it is translated from "pro-ginosko" (compare pro-life, pro-active, arguments pro etc. It is the opposite of contra). Why are people trying to make it mean the same as would be meant by "pre-ginosko?"

Premise 4 is based on premise 2, as noted. Premise 2 is quoted scripture, not my words, if you don't like them, too bad. God's gifts are irrevocable.

What other problems do you see with this argument? I don't see any.

 

[lared]

You will have to excuse me as I was told that I could no longer be part of the discussions.