eternal security, yea or ney?

[Miss Shelby]

Andrew,

Michelle,

My point is simply this: I cant for a moment believe that an "ex-Christian" (if there's such a thing) burning and screaming in pain in hell is still basking in the love of God and enjoying the Father-son relationship. To me its commons sense he's been separated from the love of God -- which contradicts Rom 8:38-39

"Name one!? Ahhhmmmm .... Judas Iscariot?"

If a person goes to hell that is complete separation from God. I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though.

There is Scriptural support that Judas was a true believer. He was one of the 12 given to Jesus from the Father. (Luke 6:12 16, John 17 6-8). He was given along with the other 11 the authority to drive out evil spirits and heal all manner of illness. (Matt 10 1-8) Judas could not have been an apostate at this point because Jesus said "If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided agains himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

Later, he did become a traitor and was referred to as the son of perdition, implying that he had fallen from grace and was well on his way to being eternally lost.

Michelle

 

[sola fide]

There is scriptural evidence that Judas was before ordained to fall into perdition, which would mean he was not of the elect. Such as John 12:4-8, when he apparently doubted an act of obedience to Christ. He was not of them, because if he had been of the sheep, he wouldn't have went out from the sheep. And Christ did say "of them which thou gavest me I have lost none." John 18:9.
And I do not want to contest the idea that "God loves everyone" persay, but Romans 8 definitely sheds light on God's feeling towards those that are against Him.
I do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. to make that claim is to deny any form of biblical predestination. And I believe that the canon is clear on that issue. Who can lay any charge to the elect of God? If He has chosen to start a good work in you, He is the only one who can finish it. Christ is the author and perfector of our faith and He said that we could not be plucked from His hand. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that Christ could not finish a job He began. That is, if you believe that it is grace that saved us. If salvation is a gift given by God, how can it be given back?
A story I once heard about the subject goes like this. There's an article in the newspaper that offered a free matinee movie at a local movie theater. Many people went and got into the movie free only to find out as they were about to leave that they had to pay a fee to be let out of the theater. What a scam the cinema manager had concocted.
I don't believe this principle applies to salvaiton. You get it for free, but you can pay a fee by works to get out of it. If God has chosen you, you are in His grip, by your own free will, b/c His will and yours have become one in the issue. If salvation is purely of God, and not of man, and we conceed that God is perfect, then how can we lose what was purely of God to begin with? God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Andrew]

"I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though. "

yes but that's not the point here. the point is "separation". when one is in hell, he is certainly separated from the love of God. can demons and powers succeed in separating a child of God from God's love, NO, according to Romans 8:38,39.

Judas. He's b4 the cross b4 the church was born. so you can't say Judas was a believer in the sense of being a Christian coz there was no cross or church yet.

also the apostles themselves werent born again until the day of pentecost - cos only then was the Holy Spirit given.

and once the holy spirit is given, it cant be taken back. once a person is born again, he cant by another miracle, become unborn. nature itself teaches us that.

finally, just becos Judas was named one of the disciples and went out among them does not mean he made Jesus Lord over him. if being a disciple meant you are automatically a believer, why would Jesus ask his disciples " 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by Andrew
"I'm not sure that God doesn't love the person, though. "

yes but that's not the point here. the point is "separation". when one is in hell, he is certainly separated from the love of God. can demons and powers succeed in separating a child of God from God's love, NO, according to Romans 8:38,39.

Our sin can and does separate us from God.  But He still loves us, so I don't see a contradiction with the Scripture.

finally, just becos Judas was named one of the disciples and went out among them does not mean he made Jesus Lord over him. if being a disciple meant you are automatically a believer, why would Jesus ask his disciples " 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"

The reason I believe that Judas was a true follower is because of what Scripture says.  It says he was given the power and the authority to do the things commisioned him by Jesus... and Jesus himself said that if Satan casts out Satan the kingdom will not stand.

Admittedly, I don't know if this is a real defense for OSAS--since theoretically Judas could have repented.  However, I think it totally demolishes the myth of double predestination or unconditional election.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by sola fide
There is scriptural evidence that Judas was before ordained to fall into perdition, which would mean he was not of the elect. Such as John 12:4-8, when he apparently doubted an act of obedience to Christ. He was not of them, because if he had been of the sheep, he wouldn't have went out from the sheep. And Christ did say "of them which thou gavest me I have lost none." John 18:9.

But even Peter's faith was weak at times. 

And I do not want to contest the idea that "God loves everyone" persay, but Romans 8 definitely sheds light on God's feeling towards those that are against Him.
I do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. to make that claim is to deny any form of biblical predestination. And I believe that the canon is clear on that issue. Who can lay any charge to the elect of God? If He has chosen to start a good work in you, He is the only one who can finish it. Christ is the author and perfector of our faith and He said that we could not be plucked from His hand. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that Christ could not finish a job He began. That is, if you believe that it is grace that saved us. If salvation is a gift given by God, how can it be given back?
A story I once heard about the subject goes like this. There's an article in the newspaper that offered a free matinee movie at a local movie theater. Many people went and got into the movie free only to find out as they were about to leave that they had to pay a fee to be let out of the theater. What a scam the cinema manager had concocted.
I don't believe this principle applies to salvaiton. You get it for free, but you can pay a fee by works to get out of it. If God has chosen you, you are in His grip, by your own free will, b/c His will and yours have become one in the issue. If salvation is purely of God, and not of man, and we conceed that God is perfect, then how can we lose what was purely of God to begin with? God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

This lets the believer off the hook, though.  Salvation is a gift from God received by faith through grace, however--we can give that gift back.  We can throw it in the trash.  We can decide that we don't want it.  That is why we are warned strongly against falling away.

Michelle

 

[suzie]

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who ar God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Galations 4:6-7; Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

2 Cor 5:5; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

 

[Miss Shelby]

Andrew:

Judas. He's b4 the cross b4 the church was born. so you can't say Judas was a believer in the sense of being a Christian coz there was no cross or church yet.

Jesus was there.

Michelle

 

[Thunderchild]

If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Ah - this statement applies only to Old Covenant believers.

 

[Thunderchild]

Nothing can separate a person who is faithful from the love of God. (scripturally supported) There is no declaration here that a person cannot be separated from God and become unfaithful.

Nothing can separate a person who is faithful from God. (scriptural support = zero)

Something might separate a person who is faithful from God - (he becomes unfaithful.)

Peter in unfaithfulness separated himself from God. Being rebuked by Paul, Peter repented. His repentance placed his sins in the past, whereby he was again restored to grace. Again and yet again - the Bible declares that grace is extended with respect to past sins.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Eternal Security ? YEA !


Romans 11:11

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!


Romans 11: 29

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

[Thunderchild]

Romans 11:11? You neglected to mention the warning at Romans 11:17 - 22.
(verses 20-22)

For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be high minded, but fear, for if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest neither He will spare you. Behold, then, the kindness and severity of God. Indeed on those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in his kindness Otherwise you also will be cut off.

But what does verse 23 say? If they that were cut off repent and do not continue in unbelief, they will AGAIN be grafted in.

Neither being cut off nor being saved is necessarily permanent. I will say it again: those who live in unbelief are pre-destined for hell - except they repent. Those who live in belief are pre-destined for heaven - except they repent.

And your mention of verse 29 is timely. It actually continues on from verse 28 (as shown by the "for" as the first word of verse 29). "indeed enemies with regard to the gospel, but nonetheless beloved for the sake of the fathers."

 

[Loser For Jesus]

For what it's worth, I agree with Thunderchild's last two posts.

I'll quote the words of Jesus again:

Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[DaveKerwin]

I will write this out with premesis and a conclusion.

• 1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
• 2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
• 3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
• 4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)

• 5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Romans 11


The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, there is the most of it. The part about the ingrafted branches is a bit complex, and I will admit that parts of it seem that they could be used for either side of the argument, but as it stands now, I do not see branches being ingrafted meaning that you can lose God's gift of eternal life. It talked so much about Israel, and God's covenant with them, yet bringing Gentiles into the whole salvation thing. I will study more and post more later.

 

[wblastyn]

I think eternal life is a gift from God, and in order to have eternal life we must accept the gift. So I do believe it is possible for someone to "lose" their salvation by giving it back to God, ie. rejecting Christ (deciding Christianity is false after becoming saved, etc).

 

[Andrew]

so, wblastyn

wld you give it back to God?

 

[lared]

The Origin and Development of Predestination

In ancient times people believed that their lives could be guided by the stars. This practice, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, was "first categorized and cataloged in ancient Mesopotamia." In time "Babylonian diviners began-for the purpose of predicting the course of an individual's life-to utilize some planetary omens." (Italics ours) Thus the basis for a later belief was laid.

From Babylon such thinking spread and developed in other parts of the earth. It had penetrated Jewish religious thought before the advent of Christianity. The first-century historian Josephus tells us that the Pharisees and Sadducees differed over it. "The Pharisees," he wrote, " . . . ascribe everything to Fate or to God." According to the Muslim Koran: "No soul can ever die except by Allah's leave and at a term appointed."-Surah 3:145, Mohammed Pickthall's translation.

The doctrine of predestination (or, foreordination) was introduced to Christendom by the Roman Catholic "saint" Augustine in the fifth century. It is sometimes called the doctrine of Augustine. The Catholic Church still holds to it, yet not to the extent that Augustine taught. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 11, page 713, states: "All things are foreknown and foreordained by God."-See also page 714 under the heading "Predestination in Catholic Theology."

The 16th-century Protestant reformer John Calvin was more explicit, like Augustine. "Predestination," Calvin defined as "the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in himself what he would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others." According to him, God fixed every individual's destiny, including yours, "before the first man was created."

 

[lared]

Predestination and Its Widespread Effect on People

Calvin's influence became very widespread. Explaining this, the book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism says: "Calvinism was the faith over which the great political and cultural struggles of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were fought in the most highly developed countries, the Netherlands, England, and France. . . . the doctrine of predestination was considered its most characteristic dogma. . . . It served as a rallying-point to countless heroes of the Church militant, and in both the eighteenth and the nineteenth centuries it . . . formed the battlecry of great new awakenings."

This doctrine, "most characteristic" of Calvinism, affected people in different ways. Commenting on this, the Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "It minimized man's freedom, and so produced either an over-confidence in those who believed themselves elect, or despair in those who could not reach the assurance." Sometimes such "over-confidence" spread through whole communities, who imagined themselves to be a "chosen race." It was used to justify the suppression of other races considered primitive.

Predestination promotes a fatalistic view toward life, something very common among South Africans, both black and white. This is understandable in view of the strong Calvinistic influence there, especially from the Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian Churches. In the event of death, Xhosas in that country sometimes say: "A man is entitled to slaughter what belongs to him." This implies that God causes deaths, just as a man has the right to slaughter his own sheep.

Belief in predestination can cause a person to lose faith in God. When disaster or serious illness strikes, such a one may blame God, turning against him. This belief can also lead to foolhardiness. Some believe that no matter what risks they take, their life will only end at 'God's fixed time.' For example, this has led to reckless driving, with resultant loss of life, in some north African countries.

 

[Andrew]

lared,
that's the wrong view of predestination. Predestination is Biblical.

 

[lared]

What Does the Bible Teach?

It teaches that God created man in his 'image and likeness.' (Genesis 1:26) Such "likeness" refers to qualities, not physical appearance. For instance, just as the Creator is free to do as he chooses, he has created man with a free will. Out of regard for this, the Creator does not fix or foreordain the path each individual will take. Does this conflict with God's ability to see into the future? No! To illustrate: A radio enables one to hear world news in the home, but it must first be switched on and the right station selected at the correct time. Likewise with the Creator's power of foreknowledge; he makes discretionary and selective use of it, showing regard for the free will he gave to man.

The Bible teaches that coincidences and disasters are often a matter of "time and unforeseen occurrence." (Ecclesiastes 9:11, 12) For example, consider a busy traffic intersection. An "unforeseen occurrence," such as failing brakes, at the wrong "time" could cause a fatal accident. The Bible does not teach that God is responsible for or foreordains such things. Realizing their personal responsibility, Christians will endeavor to drive with "soundness of mind," seeing to it that their vehicles are kept in a roadworthy condition.-2 Timothy 1:7.

As to mankind's final destiny, the Bible teaches that there are three possibilities. First, from among those who have accepted God's provision for salvation, he has "called" a certain class. These ones have been destined to life in heaven and the number is fixed-144,000. Under God's appointed King, Jesus Christ, they will form a heavenly government for the blessing of mankind. (Romans 8:29, 30; Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4) Although this class and its number have been "foreordained," this is not so respecting the individuals making it up. It is possible that an individual might fail in living up to the heavenly calling, requiring a replacement. Hence the warning: "Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."-Revelation 3:11; see also Matthew 24:13; Philippians 3:12, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 3-5.

The other two possibilities are for people to live forever on this earth or finally to lose life altogether. In both cases neither the number nor the individuals have been fixed. The choice depends on man. As the Creator says: "Here I am putting before you people the way of life and the way of death." If a person is on the "way of death," it is not too late to change. God's own invitation is: "Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die?" Also, if a person has chosen "the way of life," he must be careful to stay on it. Jehovah's Witnesses take to heart God's warning: "When I say to the righteous one: 'You will positively keep living,' and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done-for this he will die."-Jeremiah 21:8; Ezekiel 33:11, 13.

A wonderful future awaits those who choose and stay on "the way of life." Either by a resurrection from the dead or by surviving into God's New Order, they have the prospect of eternal life. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; John 11:25) "The gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:23)