Eternal security or OSAS

All evil comes from God who created all things. Evil is part of God's will.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The truth is we do not have control over the good or evil we do, all is part of God's will. If you are lucky you will be chosen for good things or if you are unlucky God will destroy you.

Bluelion said:

Yes that is true God draws us, but we do have the choice, but God already knows what we will do and who is his, but all of us were born dead in the flesh and had to choose life. It is a fair chance for everyone.

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If we are dead how can we choose? Does not God need to make us alive so that we can choose? And if we are alive to choose, awakened from our stupor that causes in us violence against his Holiness, what response can there possibly be but to repent in ashes. If we do not repent having seen the goodness of God and our own violence against his Holiness I submit to you that we have not yet seen the goodness of God and do not comprehend our violence against his Holiness.

I suppose we will agree to disagree on this matter. Being chosen by God is not being a robot. Free will is the will to decide what sin we will commit next sin we were born sinner in willful disobedience toward God after the fall. Whether one believes Palagianism or Calvinism there are many saved in both camps. I do know that if were not for God I wouldn't be saved, I would be eternally separated from Him. If it were not for Him keeping me saved I would fall harder than Adam and Eve. If I had the opportunity to save myself, I would still refuse to do so do to the nature of disobedience I was born with. Yes, God knew Lucifer would sin but without the order of creation following that of the creator, there never would have been sin in the first place.

SeventhValley said:

All evil comes from God who created all things. Evil is part of God's will.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The truth is we do not have control over the good or evil we do, all is part of God's will. If you are lucky you will be chosen for good things or if you are unlucky God will destroy you.

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I love that verse

St Antony said:

The fatalism implicit in Calvinism and predestination is depressing. This is not the message of Jesus as reflected in the Gospels. When Jesus, Paul or the other apostles mention the Elect, they mean all of mankind who have chosen of their free will to follow Jesus and live the Christian life. God is all powerful and, thus, has the power to grant free will to man. Every book of Scripture is teeming with exhortations by John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul and others to repent and follow Jesus. Jesus tells Peter "Feed my Lambs" He tells all of us to love our neighbor as ourself. He gives us Ten Commandments to guide us toward living a life that is pleasing to Him. God, through his infinite mercy has offered us salvation through his Son. It is our choice, not fate, whether we accept this gift!

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You're saying God takes away His own sovereignty to give man a free will? Where can we find this in the Bible? (Please don't reference Joshua 24:15. Calvinists believe in having a will, just not a free will.) So we can put aside Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and say "God ain't sovereign anymore. He gave mankind free will. All that predestined stuff, eh, He's just looking into the future." Well, I'm not sure how God in His "sacrificed sovereignty to give man a free will" is able to foresee this "free" will. This Arminian argument never makes sense to me. How can God foresee a free will? And why is Calvinism depressing? Knowledge between free will or no free will doesn't have to affect your satisfaction in life. Also, yes, God does command all to repent. He also commands all not to lie. Just because He commands something doesn't mean we can do it. Remember our nature is corrupted by the love for sin. Repentance is a gift from God and people can only be repentant if he/she is drawn from God (being of the elect) (John 6:65).

The bottom line is we cannot choose God and we are naturally enemies of God. Our nature is too corrupt (Romans 8:7). Therefore, the only way we can be saved is if God draws us to Him. Not through works or anything, it's simply up to God's will. Nobody can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Now what does Jesus say about those whom the Father draws? "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37). The Lord will "raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44). Those whom are called end up being glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Not drifiting away. Not losing their salvation. Not being abandoned by God. None of that. The called are never forsaken and are glorified in the end.

Therefore, perseverance of the saints is true.

joshuabjoshua said:

You're saying God takes away His own sovereignty to give man a free will? Where can we find this in the Bible? (Please don't reference Joshua 24:15. Calvinists believe in having a will, just not a free will.) So we can put aside Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and say "God ain't sovereign anymore. He gave mankind free will. All that predestined stuff, eh, He's just looking into the future." Well, I'm not sure how God in His "sacrificed sovereignty to give man a free will" is able to foresee this "free" will. This Arminian argument never makes sense to me. How can God foresee a free will? And why is Calvinism depressing? Knowledge between free will or no free will doesn't have to affect your satisfaction in life. Also, yes, God does command all to repent. He also commands all not to lie. Just because He commands something doesn't mean we can do it. Remember our nature is corrupted by the love for sin. Repentance is a gift from God and people can only be repentant if he/she is drawn from God (being of the elect) (John 6:65).

The bottom line is we cannot choose God and we are naturally enemies of God. Our nature is too corrupt (Romans 8:7). Therefore, the only way we can be saved is if God draws us to Him. Not through works or anything, it's simply up to God's will. Nobody can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Now what does Jesus say about those whom the Father draws? "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37). The Lord will "raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44). Those whom are called end up being glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Not drifiting away. Not losing their salvation. Not being abandoned by God. None of that. The called are never forsaken and are glorified in the end.

Therefore, perseverance of the saints is true.

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Well stated my friend, well stated!

Predestination is only depressing to those who are lost in sin. For those who have been regenerated and saved by God's grace, predestination is a reason to celebrate! Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see. Anything less than God's sovereign choice to do as He pleases without the approval of man is a man centered theology giving more praise to the man that was created than to the God who created. Call me what you want, but I will give my praise to God for saving me and not to myself for some decision I supposedly made so that I could boast of it

Bluelion said:

do you not know every one is born dead, and it is accepting Christ being reborn which brings us to life.

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I do know this, my question is about the ability of a dead man to do anything?

Did you choose the family you would be born to? Did you choose the time, date, and month you would be born? No more can we choose Christ unless we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Why do we deny Christ's words when He told us plainly that we cannot come to Him unless the Father first draw and that He started a good work in us will also finish it? Even Peter says of Paul's writings that what he writes is hard for many to understand. Jesus continually says he who has ears let him hear. Why did Jesus speak in parables? Because those who were not called to salvation wouldn't understand it. All who had been appointed to eternal life were saved. I do not teach my views to my son on election and predestination, I let him figure it out on his own. He came to me at 9 years of age and said, "hey, dad, are we predestined by God unto salvation according to the words of the Apostles?". If a 9 year old who has not been taught about predestination and election can understand it, anyone can. I do not go to a reformed Baptist church (which I would prefer) because the close one to me is 3 hours away. We attend a full Arminian church. I am thankful God opened my son's eyes without me leading him one way or another. But I came to that same conclusion as my son at the ripe age of 11 in a Methodist church full of Weslyanism.

joshuabjoshua said:

You're saying God takes away His own sovereignty to give man a free will? Where can we find this in the Bible? (Please don't reference Joshua 24:15. Calvinists believe in having a will, just not a free will.) So we can put aside Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 and say "God ain't sovereign anymore. He gave mankind free will. All that predestined stuff, eh, He's just looking into the future." Well, I'm not sure how God in His "sacrificed sovereignty to give man a free will" is able to foresee this "free" will. This Arminian argument never makes sense to me. How can God foresee a free will? And why is Calvinism depressing? Knowledge between free will or no free will doesn't have to affect your satisfaction in life. Also, yes, God does command all to repent. He also commands all not to lie. Just because He commands something doesn't mean we can do it. Remember our nature is corrupted by the love for sin. Repentance is a gift from God and people can only be repentant if he/she is drawn from God (being of the elect) (John 6:65).

The bottom line is we cannot choose God and we are naturally enemies of God. Our nature is too corrupt (Romans 8:7). Therefore, the only way we can be saved is if God draws us to Him. Not through works or anything, it's simply up to God's will. Nobody can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Now what does Jesus say about those whom the Father draws? "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37). The Lord will "raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44). Those whom are called end up being glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Not drifiting away. Not losing their salvation. Not being abandoned by God. None of that. The called are never forsaken and are glorified in the end.

Therefore, perseverance of the saints is true.

Click to expand...

We are naturally enemies of God? Says who? We are tainted by original sin because of Adam's fall but saying we are therefore naturally enemies of God is a leap beyond Christian doctine. We are all sinners but most Christians among us strive to follow God, as feeble as our efforts can sometimes be.

God is good and created us. Why would he create a world consisting of enemies? He planted a seed of goodness in all of us. If we respond to and act on this grace we become closer to Him.

Why would Jesus command the crowds to repent, drop everything and follow him, if the Elect had already been predetermined? Calvinist misconstrue what Elect really means. Christians who have freely chosen to listen to God, repent of their sins and follow Christ are the Elect. Assuming they persevere until the hour of their death, they will be in heaven. It is all up to them to respond to God's gift.

God is not giving up his "sovereignty" by giving man free will. God is the absolute sovereign of everything and always will be. He created man to populate his world and wants us to follow his commands. The Old Testament Jews couldn't so he sent Jesus and offered man a new covenant. If man accepts his gift of grace, repents and follows the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel, he will join the other saved in heaven. Again, the burden is on man to exercise his free will, avoid sin and follow Christ.

I'm not going to address each Bible verse cited in your post because I would be writing all night. Needless to say, I think Calvinists are missing the forest for the trees. A reading of Jesus' words, Paul's teachings and the entirety of the New Testament, presupposes the idea that man has free will and the ability to accept or reject God's ultimately gracious gift of his Son for our salvation.

St Antony said:

We are naturally enemies of God? Says who? We are tainted by original sin because of Adam's fall but saying we are therefore naturally enemies of God is a leap beyond Christian doctine. We are all sinners but most Christians among us strive to follow God, as feeble as our efforts can sometimes be.

God is good and created us. Why would he create a world consisting of enemies? He planted a seed of goodness in all of us. If we respond to and act on this grace we become closer to Him.

Why would Jesus command the crowds to repent, drop everything and follow him, if the Elect had already been predetermined? Calvinist misconstrue what Elect really means. Christians who have freely chosen to listen to God, repent of their sins and follow Christ are the Elect. Assuming they persevere until the hour of their death, they will be in heaven. It is all up to them to respond to God's gift.

God is not giving up his "sovereignty" by giving man free will. God is the absolute sovereign of everything and always will be. He created man to populate his world and wants us to follow his commands. The Old Testament Jews couldn't so he sent Jesus and offered man a new covenant. If man accepts his gift of grace, repents and follows the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel, he will join the other saved in heaven. Again, the burden is on man to exercise his free will, avoid sin and follow Christ.

I'm not going to address each Bible verse cited in your post because I would be writing all night. Needless to say, I think Calvinists are missing the forest for the trees. A reading of Jesus' words, Paul's teachings and the entirety of the New Testament, presupposes the idea that man has free will and the ability to accept or reject God's ultimately gracious gift of his Son for our salvation.

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So you are saying is Jesus's death is only a potential propitiation to reconcile the lost back to God, and not a particular propitiation. How can sins be paid for twice? If Jesus paid for the sins of all and some reject Him do they pay a second payment to God for what Jesus has already paid for? Therefore Jesus either only paid for some sins of all or did he paid for all sins of some? To say that people in are in hell for sins that have been paid for is making man more sovereign than God and trampling under foot the redemptive work of Christ. Either Jesus death was purposeful (if it rests in God's hands) or useless (if it rests in man's hands and they go to hell for sins already paid for).

jamantc said:

So you are saying is Jesus's death is only a potential propitiation to reconcile the lost back to God, and not a particular propitiation. How can sins be paid for twice? If Jesus paid for the sins of all and some reject Him do they pay a second payment to God for what Jesus has already paid for? Therefore Jesus either only paid for some sins of all or did he paid for all sins of some? To say that people in are in hell for sins that have been paid for is making man more sovereign than God and trampling under foot the redemptive work of Christ. Either Jesus death was purposeful (if it rests in God's hands) or useless (if it rests in man's hands and they go to hell for sins already paid for).

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I have to confess, I don't understand your position here. Jesus' (one) death on the cross is sufficient to save every sinner for all time. But to gain the benefit of this gift from God of Christ's death on the cross, man must accept the gift. In the Scriptures, we are told how to accept this gift. We must repent of our sins and desire a relationship with Christ. We must follow his commands, the primary two being to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourself. When we stumble, we must confess this sin, repent, and with sincerity and contriteness vow to avoid this sin in the future. God gives us instructions on how to live and what actions are sinful throughout the Scriptures. He provides the Holy Spirit to help us along the way. Others pray for us and intercede for us to help come closer to God. If we persevere and are steadfast in our pursuit of Christ to the end, we will join Him in heaven.

I differ from Calvinists in that I think God wants all of us to join Him in heaven. He is cheering for us every step of the way to accept his magnificent gift (of Jesus on the cross) But God is also just and we die under the stain of sin, he won't accept us into heaven.

Men who go to hell don't go to hell for sins already paid for. It's just that Jesus paid for their sins but they rejected this gift and chose to live in sin instead.

Wow, that is some man centered gospel there my brother. You also said that men die under the stain of sin, yet still say their sin is completely paid for. If you go to jail and your bond is set at 2 million and you can't pay it because you don't have the money and I come by and pay it for you is the same that Jesus did, He paid for your sins in particular not in potential. Why didn't I pay for the bonds set for the others? Why did I leave them there in that state? Jesus death is the same way, it was a redemptive price paid to set those He loves free. Jesus said I have come for those that are My Fathers and those that are His hear His voice and follow. The disciples didn't choose Jesus, He made that clear. They followed Him without knowing who He was or where He came from. Ephesians 1 leaves little doubt as
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV). This verse does not say He chose us because He knew we would choose Him, it simply reads what it reads and nothing more. Does this negate our responsibility? No, it doesn't. Even CS Lewis who leaned to Arminianism stated that we only come to God because He draws and that if He chooses not to draw us to Himself then when can no more come to Him than we can walk to the moon. I would rather give God all the glory for saving me than to ever give myself one thought that I could choose Him from some supposed free will I had to choose anything other than sin. The bible is clear that in our natural state we are at enmity with God from birth. How then could I ever imagine without His starting a good work in me I could ever be saved? I can't nor would I ever want to give that though the entertainment in my head! Christ died for me, this I know, not because the bible told me so, but because the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His and that it was He who started the work me. I will never understand how men go to hell with their sins paid for and then they pay for them again. Jesus work was particular, not potential

Bluelion said:

well he can pick up the phone when God is ringing.

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not unless the spirit first leads him he can't, that's clear in scripture

as you wish my brother!

St Antony said:

We are naturally enemies of God? Says who?

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At least St. Paul said it (Rom 5)

We are tainted by original sin because of Adam's fall but saying we are therefore naturally enemies of God is a leap beyond Christian doctrine.

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Maybe you should take this up with the Majesterium,
Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies." --- CCC 1825

We are all sinners but most Christians among us strive to follow God, as feeble as our efforts can sometimes be.

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Well you've obviously met and accept the claims of people who claim to be Christians but are not. All Christians strive to follow God.

God is good and created us. Why would he create a world consisting of enemies? He planted a seed of goodness in all of us. If we respond to and act on this grace we become closer to Him.

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He subjected creation to futility in hope.

Why would Jesus command the crowds to repent, drop everything and follow him, if the Elect had already been predetermined?

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Calvinist misconstrue what Elect really means. Christians who have freely chosen to listen to God, repent of their sins and follow Christ are the Elect. Assuming they persevere until the hour of their death, they will be in heaven. It is all up to them to respond to God's gift.

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In effect we have the same group of people as the Elect, we're just debating on what is the cause of them being Elect, the Calvinist will say that it is God's causing apart from any work of man, those with a synergistic gospel will say something along the spectrum from God working with/in the person down to the pelagian position that man acheives his own salvation apart from the work of God.

God is not giving up his "sovereignty" by giving man free will. God is the absolute sovereign of everything and always will be. He created man to populate his world and wants us to follow his commands. The Old Testament Jews couldn't so he sent Jesus and offered man a new covenant. If man accepts his gift of grace, repents and follows the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel, he will join the other saved in heaven. Again, the burden is on man to exercise his free will, avoid sin and follow Christ.

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That's a very dispensational view of the covenants, I didn't think that romanists bought into that whole thing.

I'm not going to address each Bible verse cited in your post because I would be writing all night. Needless to say, I think Calvinists are missing the forest for the trees. A reading of Jesus' words, Paul's teachings and the entirety of the New Testament, presupposes the idea that man has free will and the ability to accept or reject God's ultimately gracious gift of his Son for our salvation.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you here, an honest reading of the NT has God at the center of everything, his plan is to redeem in the person and work of Christ, presupposing that what God proposes will not be disposed of, and that this is the work that he planned from eternity past brings us to a discussion of predestination and election in eternity past.

which brings us to the OP of eternal security and OSAS. without election and predestination there is no eternal security or OSAS because it takes eternal security from God's hands and puts it in man's hands who could not follow a command from the Garden and we are supposed to believe because we have advanced in some way we are more powerful in the will than Adam and Eve were. You have to agree, we are more powerful in our pride than they were, but not the will because our will is in more bondage than theirs ever was. That should be back on topic which I think we never left to start with