Eternal security or OSAS

[SeventhValley]

To move this further if God is both the author of Good and evil then I should not try hard at work because if God wants to have me make my next rank I will if he dose not even if I am the best worker I will not make it so I should not try. If God wants me to get a DUI that will be none of my responsibility but will be God's will for me I should praise God for causing me to drink.

 

[Keachian]

To move this further if God is both the author of Good and evil then I should not try hard at work because if God wants to have me make my next rank I will if he dose not even if I am the best worker I will not make it so I should not try. If God wants me to get a DUI that will be none of my responsibility but will be God's will for me I should praise God for causing me to drink.

Do I need recount the admonishments in the Scriptures to hard work or sobriety, the very same Scriptures from which I find God's sovereignty to be supreme? The writers of Holy Writ didn't feel a contradiction between God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility, why then is it that those who wish to deny a part of God's Sovereignty forget all about their beliefs of Man's Responsibility. As Spurgeon spake of these truths "What need have I to reconcile friends."

 

[SeventhValley]

If man has responsibility then he has it and can loose his salvation. If man as no responsibility then all righteousness and evil is God's will and man has no responsibility.

 

[SeventhValley]

Like you said God was responsible for Pharaoh's hard heart. Pharaoh was innocently doing God's will.

 

[jamantc]

If Christ paid the price for all who have sinned and they reject salvation then they will pay for their sins a second time making Christ death vain. If Christ paid for the sins of all who lived in the past, present, and future then those from the past before His death and in hell were given a second chance which the bible is clear does not happen. Christ either paid the price potentially or particularly, not both. How comforting it is to say Christ paid half my sins and if I reject Him I will only pay for the half He didn't cover for me on the cross.

 

[Keachian]

If man has responsibility then he has it and can loose his salvation. If man as no responsibility then all righteousness and evil is God's will and man has no responsibility.

Man is responsible, God also works in the Elect such that they will persevere.

 

[Keachian]

Like you said God was responsible for Pharaoh's hard heart. Pharaoh was innocently doing God's will.

Does the Bible portray Pharaoh as "innocently" doing God's will? How about the King's of Assyria and Babylon when they removed God's people from the promised land, they were certainly doing God's will when they removed them yet God finds fault with them in part because they make themselves out to be gods and in part because they have sinned against the People of God.

 

[SeventhValley]

Nope God is sovereign over all. You say God dose not control all actions good and evil therefore your God is not sovereign but weak unable to have all men do his will since according to you man is responsible for his actions not God.

 

[SeventhValley]

Does the Bible portray Pharaoh as "innocently" doing God's will? How about the King's of Assyria and Babylon when they removed God's people from the promised land, they were certainly doing God's will when they removed them yet God finds fault with them in part because they make themselves out to be gods and in part because they have sinned against the People of God.

God wanted them to make themselves out to be gods so he could smash them for fun. They had no control over their actions as God controls the smallest particle.

 

[Keachian]

Nope God is sovereign over all. You say God dose not control all actions good and evil therefore your God is not sovereign but weak unable to have all men do his will since according to you man is responsible for his actions not God.

I'm confused, did we just switch places in this argument?

 

[Keachian]

God wanted them to make themselves out to be gods so he could smash them for fun. They had no control over their actions as God controls the smallest particle.

How does the Scriptures describe this? You are overreaching in your rebellion against God's Sovereignty

 

[SeventhValley]

You preach a salvation of works saying man has responsibility for his good and evil works when God alone is responsible for all good and evil actions.

Hitler,Stalin,Gandhi, Mr.Rogers all are doing the will of God which only God is responsible for not man.

 

[St Antony]

All the Elect will make a profession of faith, but not all who make a profession of faith are of the Elect.


All the Elect will continue to repent of sins, but not all who repent of sin are of the Elect.


This is true and I am reminded of the words of St. Paul;
For you have been saved by grace, through faith, and this is not your own doing but a gift of God, not a result of works such that no man can boast. We are his workmanship created again in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, such that we might walk in them -- Eph 2:8-10


God, through his indwelling Spirit will cause the Elect to repent, if he so wills the non-Elect will repent, but this is merely a staying of his Judgment to come and he will surely pour out his wrath upon those vessels which he has reserved for it.

The fatalism implicit in Calvinism and predestination is depressing. This is not the message of Jesus as reflected in the Gospels. When Jesus, Paul or the other apostles mention the Elect, they mean all of mankind who have chosen of their free will to follow Jesus and live the Christian life. God is all powerful and, thus, has the power to grant free will to man. Every book of Scripture is teeming with exhortations by John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul and others to repent and follow Jesus. Jesus tells Peter "Feed my Lambs" He tells all of us to love our neighbor as ourself. He gives us Ten Commandments to guide us toward living a life that is pleasing to Him. God, through his infinite mercy has offered us salvation through his Son. It is our choice, not fate, whether we accept this gift!

 

[Bluelion]

Why would God leave something as crucial to his plan as our choosing him up to us? As has been quoted earlier the Father draws we who are being sanctified to him, it is nothing in myself so that I may boast. God is the author of my Salvation from beginning to the end.

Yes that is true God draws us, but we do have the choice, but God already knows what we will do and who is his, but all of us were born dead in the flesh and had to choose life. It is a fair chance for everyone.

 

[Bluelion]

Like you said God was responsible for Pharaoh's hard heart. Pharaoh was innocently doing God's will.

wow there is something wrong with your faith.

Pharaoh was not innocent, he harden his hard to start with on his own so God poured out his judgement and harden it even further. God is Justice.

You called God the author of evil really. i would be very afraid if I were you to call Good evil. Evil is going against God, what do you think sin is? It is going against God's will. Yet you say God authored evil how so sho0w me in the Bible? Jesus said God is God of the living and not the dead. You have in fact called God satan, satan is the author of evil. he was the first one to turn against God and disobey. satan started it. did God know he would do it yes, but he gave him a chance like everyone else, if for no other reason to show His Love for us, and prove those who are his will always turn back to him.

Grow up, you sound like a spoiled child, in all love.

 

[Bluelion]

You preach a salvation of works saying man has responsibility for his good and evil works when God alone is responsible for all good and evil actions.

Hitler,Stalin,Gandhi, Mr.Rogers all are doing the will of God which only God is responsible for not man.

Children of God do not need to defend our Father to other children. You need to repent. As progmonk said you are rebelling against God, satan was the first to do this.

 

[jamantc]

Blulion, I have a simple question if it's ok:
If there was nothing before God, no good or evil, and nothing exist outside of God, then who created evil? Yes, I know the that darkness is the absent of light and light is the absent of darkness and that the absence of God is evil. But if God is ommipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, then God is everywhere and therefore evil couldn't exit according to the theory that evil is the absence of God. So, if nothing (can't pick and choose what nothing is) existed before God created it, then when did evil exist? Just curious

 

[Keachian]

The fatalism implicit in Calvinism and predestination is depressing.

I don't find it so

This is not the message of Jesus as reflected in the Gospels.

John 6?

When Jesus, Paul or the other apostles mention the Elect, they mean all of mankind who have chosen of their free will to follow Jesus and live the Christian life.

Agreed, though you are missing the changing of the will of man by the Holy Spirit.

God is all powerful and, thus, has the power to grant free will to man.

Yes, and natural man's only inclination is to blaspheme and do violence against God.

Every book of Scripture is teeming with exhortations by John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul and others to repent and follow Jesus. Jesus tells Peter "Feed my Lambs" He tells all of us to love our neighbor as ourself. He gives us Ten Commandments to guide us toward living a life that is pleasing to Him. God, through his infinite mercy has offered us salvation through his Son. It is our choice, not fate, whether we accept this gift!

I agree with all this, I don't think you understand my position.

 

[Bluelion]

Blulion, I have a simple question if it's ok:
If there was nothing before God, no good or evil, and nothing exist outside of God, then who created evil? Yes, I know the that darkness is the absent of light and light is the absent of darkness and that the absence of God is evil. But if God is ommipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, then God is everywhere and therefore evil couldn't exit according to the theory that evil is the absence of God. So, if nothing (can't pick and choose what nothing is) existed before God created it, then when did evil exist? Just curious

I already answered this In the beginning was God, sense God is good there was not evil because there was nothing but God. God created, and made those creations Good at first, but gave them free will, a choice, to obey or not, satan was the first to rebel. He became prideful of his beauty and thought him self greater than the other angels and then greater than God. Evil started with satan. Evil like i said is disobeying God, that is what sin is. So you blame God because he gave us a choice, yet if he had not you would complain we never had a choice.

God does not want mindless robots, he wants us to follow him out of Love because he loves us.

I can threaten my son with punishment and make him do my will, however he would hate me if i did this all the time. if i ask him give him a choice, most the time he is willing to do what I ask, he just wanted to be asked. Same is true with man.

 

[jamantc]

he was the first one to turn against God and disobey. satan started it. did God know he would do it yes, but he gave him a chance like everyone else, if for no other reason to show His Love for us, and prove those who are his will always turn back to him.

What did God give satan a chance to do? Angels can't be saved due to the fact they can't repent.