Eternal justification

Irishcat922 · Mar 30, 2006

DrWarfield said:
When will we who are of the Reformed persuasion move away from the scholastic Protestant categories and philosophies, and into true Biblical and Systematic Theology? This debate on 'eternal justification' smacks of supra biblical, and scholastic overtones.

Regards,
DrWarfield

Maybe so, but the way we speak of certain Biblical doctrines and how we define them definitly matters. I think when it comes to ones understanding of the doctrine of justification, we are talking about true biblical and systematic Theology.

Iosias · Mar 31, 2006

"But there are one or two acts of God which, while they certainly are decreed as much as other things, yet they bear such a special relation to God's predestination that it is rather difficult to say whether they were done in eternity or whether they were done in time. Election is one of those things which were done absolutely in eternity; all who were elect, were elect as much in eternity as they are in time. But you may say, "Does the like affirmation apply to adoption or justification?" My late eminent and now glorified predecessor, Dr. Gill, diligently studying these doctrines, said that adoption was the act of God in eternity, and that as all believers were elect in eternity, so beyond a doubt they were adopted in eternity. He went further than that to include the doctrine of justification and he said that inasmuch as Jesus Christ was before all worlds justified by his Father, and accepted by him as our representative, therefore all the elect must have been justified in Christ from before all worlds.Now, I believe there is a great deal of truth in what he said, though there was a considerable outcry raised against him at the time he first uttered it. However, that being a high and mysterious point, we would have you accept the doctrine that all those who are saved at last were elect in eternity when the means as well the end were determined. With regard to adoption, I believe we were predestined hereunto in eternity, but I do think there are some points with regard to adoption which will not allow me to consider the act of adoption to have been completed in eternity. For instance, the positive translation of my soul from a state of nature into a state of grace is a part of adoption or at least it is an effect at it, and so close an effect that it really seems to be a part of adoption itself: I believe that this was designed, and in fact that it was virtually carried out in God's everlasting covenant; but I think that it was that actually then brought to pass in all its fullness.
So with regard to justification, I must hold, that in the moment when Jesus Christ paid my debts, my debts were cancelled—in the hour when he worked out for me a perfect righteousness it was imputed to me, and therefore I may as a believer say I was complete in Christ before I was born, accepted in Jesus, even as Levi was blessed in the loins of Abraham by Melchisedec; but I know likewise that justification is described in the Scriptures as passing upon me at the time I believe. "Being justified by faith," I am told "I have peace with God, through Jesus Christ." I think, therefore that adoption and justification, while they have a very great alliance with eternity, and were virtually done then, yet have both of them such a near relation to us in time, and such a bearing upon our own personal standing and character that they have also a part and parcel of themselves actually carried out and performed in time in the heart of every believer. I may be wrong in this exposition; it requires much more time to study this subject than I have been able yet to give to it, seeing that my years are not yet many; I shall no doubt by degrees come to the knowledge more fully of such high and mysterious points of gospel doctrine.
But nevertheless, while I find the majority of sound divines holding that the works of justification and adoption are due in our lives I see, on the other hand, in Scripture much to lead me to believe that both of them were done in eternity; and I think the fairest view of the case is, that while they were virtually done in eternity, yet both adoption and justification are actually passed upon us, in our proper persons, consciences, and experiences, in time,—so that both the Westminster confession and the idea of Dr. Gill can be proved to be Scriptural, and we may hold them both without any prejudice the one to the other."

From: C.H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 7, Page 180, 81

Rick Otto · Mar 31, 2006

I find myself agreeing, but the basis for my agreement seems to rest on the division of time & eternity.
Reality as a whole contains no such division except for the sake of discussion, so I see myself as possibly agreeing with a person who accepts the facts of existence in time as the mere shadows of their existence in the mind of God, previous to creation.

mlqurgw · Mar 31, 2006

A question for those who don't hold to justification from eternity or eternal justification: Was there ever a time when God viewed His elect as sinners outside of Christ or dealt with them as sinners?

mlqurgw · Mar 31, 2006

Perhaps it should be another thread but I will ask it here because I believe it does have something to do with the issue of this one.

Are we justified by our faith or do we take hold of our justification in our experience by faith?

Rick Otto · Mar 31, 2006

I believe our perspective is necessarily temporal, until we enter eternity.
So, I'd say certainly there was a time we were not "in Christ", or there wouldn't have been a time we needed to be put there.

I think the answers to these two questions must be framed by the way the questions are asked.

I'm not sure about the phrase "taking hold", tho. I kinda think of it more as an "automatic direct deposit" (grin)into an account I can't spend from.

But I do believe justification occurs & grows in proportion to our experiencing what it's like to walk in those good works for which we were ordained.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It's the "His workmanship" phrase that leads me to shy away from phrases like "take hold".

JM · Mar 31, 2006

A quote from the Carter Lane Declaration 1757:

6 We believe, That the eternal Redemption which Christ has obtained by the shedding of His blood is special and particular, that is to say that it was only intentionally designed for the Elect of God, and Sheep of Christ, who only share the special and peculiar blessings of it. Pastoral care of Dr. John Gill

http://www.the-faith.org.uk/carterlane.html

DrWarfield · Apr 6, 2006

Irishcat922 said:
Maybe so, but the way we speak of certain Biblical doctrines and how we define them definitly matters. I think when it comes to ones understanding of the doctrine of justification, we are talking about true biblical and systematic Theology.

All true, granted, but let's keep our Systematic categories biblical rather than philosophical. I love philosophy, but too much of it has crept into our Reformed Systematics. Justification is at the heart of the Evangelical Faith (evangelical as defined by the Reformation and not Dallas or Fuller), but our doctrine of Justification ought to deal with Scriptural categories and not some speculative Scholastic concerns.

Regards,
DrWarfield

Iosias · Apr 6, 2006

mlqurgw said:
Are we justified by our faith or do we take hold of our justification in our experience by faith?

Our faith is an evidence of our justification and is the means by which we 'put on Christ'.

mlqurgw · Apr 6, 2006

AV1611 said:
Our faith is an evidence of our justification and is the means by which we 'put on Christ'.

So then we agree? I believe we are justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ and that that justification is made ours in expeience by faith.

Iosias · Apr 8, 2006

it seems so.

cygnusx1 · Apr 8, 2006

mlqurgw said:
A question for those who don't hold to justification from eternity or eternal justification: Was there ever a time when God viewed His elect as sinners outside of Christ or dealt with them as sinners?

as sinners sure .

Colossians 1:21 "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior."

as outside of Christ , Never!

From a flesh point of view , we are in Adam and were in Adam even in Eden.

From a Spiritual point of View we were born again in time ................. after being CONCEIVED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

EPHESIANS
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful[1] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[2] for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[5] to the praise of his glory.

cygnusx1 · Apr 8, 2006

The Gestation period for humans and animals is varied and interesting

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/biology/gestation-periods.htm

the Gestation period for Believers is Eternal!

Jesus is called Everlasting Father

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6).

JM · Jun 30, 2006

Quote: "...how is it that God can love men? He HATES the wicked. Yet He loves the Righteous. Well what about those saints before the cross of Christ? How was God able to demonstrate His love for them if they had not already been justified. The answer is He could not unless of course He already saw them as justified in Christ (righteous) from before the foundation of the world. God loves all of His people because He's always viewed them in Christ (timely speaking)."

Hummm....

Iosias · Jul 5, 2006

I would also suggest that you read Thomas Goodwin's The Act and Object of Justifying Faith wherein he defends the true and correct understanding of eternal justification.

cygnusx1 · Jul 5, 2006

AV1611 said:
I would also suggest that you read Thomas Goodwin's The Act and Object of Justifying Faith wherein he defends the true and correct understanding of eternal justification.

i have!

JM · Jul 5, 2006

It's been suggested...more then once...I'm just trying to add to the topic, not push this doctrine! lol

Iosias · Jul 5, 2006

cygnusx1 said:
i have!

Glad to hear it!

JM · Jul 8, 2006

AV have you seen this one: http://gospelmissionbooks.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=3388&reviews_id=2

Iosias · Jul 10, 2006

JM said:
AV have you seen this one: http://gospelmissionbooks.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=3388&reviews_id=2

No I haven't, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

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