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I distorted nothing! Your saying it was distorted is nothing but sour grapes, because I happen to believe differently than you. I have seen instant miracles as a result of prayer.Well, as I said, Christians have no problems with distorting the text to help themselves out of a tight spot, as you've done with John 14:12. Jesus did talk about just the preaching, which is a typical Christian interpretation. Jesus said that the believer in him will do the works that he was working, and even greater works. If Jesus was just a preacher, then I would concede your point. But Jesus was a miracle worker who promised miracle working powers to whoever believes in him.
I don't like distortions either, but I find Christians are distorting far more than they are willing to acknowledge. Of course, I understand their/your reasons.
This was your original response to John 14. You skipped the miracles.There is a great deal of figurative language in the Bible. There is an old adage about interpreting the Bible, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
As for your "gotcha" question. How many people did Jesus personally preach to? A few thousand? One person today can preach to millions at one time via TV. Billy Graham comes to mind.
About hell can you prove it does not exist.
I distorted nothing! Your saying it was distorted is nothing but sour grapes, because I happen to believe differently than you. I have seen instant miracles as a result of prayer.
Now, as far as Hell goes, I can't disprove it's existence anymore than you can prove that the moon doesn't have blue cheese buried deep inside its core.....
You are not God. You don't get to tell God what is moral, etc. Was God immoral when He destroyed millions men, women, old, young with fire, when He destroyed 1000s at Sinai, Sodom and Gomorra and the Canaanite cities He told Israel and destroy?Now, as far as Hell goes, I can't disprove it's existence anymore than you can prove that the moon doesn't have blue cheese buried deep inside its core.
However, Hell is incompatible with a Loving God. Consider that I am, allegedly, not as loving as this God, however, I would never torture anyone indefinitely.
I guess this just makes me a moral monster, far removed from the goodness and grace that is found only with the most loving of beings, God himself?
So that man who died without hearing the gospel, will be judged by his actions, and he will fail. But the judgement will be fair. After all what court system wouldn't judge according to your actions? They all would, if they were just. And God is just.
How did you rule out all of the other supernatural causes for the existence of the universe? Some of those causes include a group of angels banding together, or maybe even Satan creating it?
And how did you determine that it was a single God who created the Universe not a consortium of Gods, working at times in unison, at other times in opposition to one another?
Ah, so you're saying that ignorance of the crime is no excuse, just as in our system of law. Seems a bit harsh, but I see where you're coming from here.
You are not God. You don't get to tell God what is moral, etc. Was God immoral when He destroyed millions men, women, old, young with fire, when He destroyed 1000s at Sinai, Sodom and Gomorra and the Canaanite cities He told Israel and destroy?
Murder means that they legally committed a crime. Most countries have capital punishment laws where mass murderers can be killed for their actions. If a nation can do that morally speaking, why can't God do it?If I would be immoral for doing exactly what your God is doing, then your God would be immoral also.
If it's immoral for me to lie and murder, then it should be immoral for the Gods also. Put it another way, we are told that God is the author of an objective moral standard. Isn't it the height of hypocrisy for God to be judging and condemning people for doing exactly what he himself is doing?
If a nation can do that morally speaking, why can't God do it?
Yes.You are not God. You don't get to tell God what is moral, etc. Was God immoral when He destroyed millions men, women, old, young with fire, when He destroyed 1000s at Sinai, Sodom and Gomorra and the Canaanite cities He told Israel and destroy?
So here is the first problem. You need to demonstrate a soul exists before you can use it to support your position.I am posting here because I want the skeptics and atheists who don't necessarily believe in the Bible to be able to reply.
Logical case for eternal hell. Debating online over the years I see repeated questions against God, and one that I see that has not been refuted is this one: "why would God send someone to infinite hell, for finite sins?" When a skeptic asks this question they assume that they have won. Because most of the time they do win. But not this time. See our soul is spirit. Not physical....
I am posting here because I want the skeptics and atheists who don't necessarily believe in the Bible to be able to reply.
Logical case for eternal hell. Debating online over the years I see repeated questions against God, and one that I see that has not been refuted is this one: "why would God send someone to infinite hell, for finite sins?" When a skeptic asks this question they assume that they have won. Because most of the time they do win. But not this time. See our soul is spirit. Not physical. So without mass according to the theory of relativity, there is no time. So our souls are eternal by default according to known science, that is not even incorporating meta physics at that point. So technically all actions are performed by our eternal souls. Every hate filled word, every fear, every lust. It's all stamped in eternity. Because sin itself, is eternal, it must be punished eternally. Eternal hell is not a long time. It's outside of time and space. That is why I don't think the geocentric hell is really hell. Some guys believe hell is in the core of the earth. I don't think we need a physical molten fire at all, hell will be spiritually empowered. It could in fact be enflamed by God's glory itself upon sin. We don't know. That is the first part of the logical case for hell, and the strongest. The second part of this is to describe why would God send us to hell in general, why not just a prison or something else?
I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.
see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.
but my logical case for eternal hell is not based on one sin. My logical case for eternal hell is that God, who can read our thoughts and minds, and also who is perfect, can read our wickedness, and cannot forget every detail of every sin, so in an average lifetime, that is thirty thousand sins for an extremely moral person who only sins once a day. IF you do the math, 365 times eighty years, is a little under thirty thousand sins. So God is reminded of thirty thousand times you were angry, hated, lusted, stole from work, cheated on taxes, etc, etc. And when you look at the holiness of God, every time you are angry that is like murder, and every time you lusted after someone on the internet, that was like adultery and fornication. So at the end of the day, thirty thousand mortal sins creates a situation where a physical prison does not meet up with the amount of sin. If a murderer is killed for one act of committing a serial murder (under capital punishment laws,) then thirty thousand angry thoughts, of murder is not paid for by a single death. It must be paid for by eternal misery.
At this point you may be wondering how to escape from Hell...
Most people think they are relatively good people who will go to heaven one day. I just have a few questions for that person.
How many lies have you told in your whole life? (what do they call someone who lies?) -a liar
Have you ever said [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] on social media, or used God's name as a curse word? (the Bible calls that Blasphemy)
Have you ever stolen anything (regardless of value) in your whole life? (what do they call people who steal?) -Thieves
Have you ever looked with lust upon someone? (the Bible calls that adultery)
now by your own admission, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulteror at heart. And that is only four of the ten commandments. Now if God judges you by the ten commandments when you die, will you get heaven or hell? (most of us would say Hell).
So does that concern you? It concerns me.
I love you and I don't want anyone to go to hell.
In order to be saved one must do two things. Repent of any known sin, and trust in the Finished work of Christ.
If you were in court for a speeding ticket and they condemned you to prison and I stepped in and paid the fine, you would get off free.
That is what Jesus did on the cross, HE paid the fine for the world. Now all they have to do is endorse the check, but most won't.
because in order to endorse that check, they must repent and trust in Christ.
people would rather just believe in Jesus existence and hope they get to heaven.
James says even the devils believe, so what does that make us if we do the same?
we must repent, it's not an option.
But it's worth it.
(it does not mean we are perfect, but repentance becomes a tool we use as christians the rest of our lives)
If we believe in Jesus but we don't repent, we lack the one tool that helps us grow to be more like God later.
and heaven and eternal life, misses it's true meaning which is to be more loving of our enemies, our neighbors and God.
I know this is a heavy message,
but if you are a skeptic and you are not christian, yet you still do not believe in hell at all, watch this video it's a cardiologist interviewing people who had near death experiences and came back from hell itself....
The next post will be for christians who don't believe in hell, but are saved...
However I was unable to add this text due to length considerations, here 3 evidences of eternal hell from scripture, a teaser into the next post...
- Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
- secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
- thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?
Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaneously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...
Rev 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!
This not part of the three arguments for eternal hell, but it is a separate argument that likens the fire from Sodom and Gomorrah to literal hell.
Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?
Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.
Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.
Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.
SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.
no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.
In in conclusion: here is one more verse:
Mark 14:21
but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.
this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?
I await your responses.
I want to participate in your poll, but you don't have an option there for those, like me, who believe that Hades is a real place but that it'll be thrown into Eternal Oblivion at some unspecified point in the future.
Just thought I'd add a note for further
I suppose my position doesn't make God out to be the 'kindest' being in the universe, but then again, I didn't say that my interpretation is motivated by an Ethical Argument. No, my position is essentially what it is because that is the meaning which I think I find when I read what I read about 'Hades' in the Bible.Does a temporary torture make God the kindest being in the universe?
Hitler could have used this excuse. “Oh well, I didn’t torture anyone for infinity”
Createdtoworship,
I want to participate in your poll, but you don't have an option there for those, like me, who believe that Hades is a real place but that it'll be thrown into Eternal Oblivion at some unspecified point in the future.
Just thought I'd add a note for further consideration ...
Well most people don't look at this perspective as a different one than the normal orthodox perspective tha hell and the grave will be tossed into eternal lake of fire.
Both are technicaly hell, so there is little difference theologically between the two.
I don’t get what you’re asking in light of my comment. In the Bible God tells people to kill women and children. That makes him directly responsible for the killings!
the hell described by the parable of lazerus and the rich man have all of the same similarities of a lake burning with fire. Fire regardless of it's locality will still burn and hurt you. That is why most don't differentiate the two, and both are called the same term "hell" typically throughout history of the church, including the church fathers.While I can't comment much on "my view," I think I can say that my view is different where both metaphysics and meta-ethics are concerned. There is a qualifiable difference between either suffer an Eternity of Fire and Brimstone, never to be extinguished or a limited time of suffering in Hades and then utter oblivion with no pain---but no conciousness either---forever more.
Yes! but like I said, can you say that there is a moral rule somewhere that the person who puts someone into existence, has the moral right to keep that person in existence? And again if we can use capital punishment as the most moral alternative to punishing people like hitler and stalin, etc, then why can't God?
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