Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

[GeorgeE]

I have not believed in hell sense I was a small child growing up in Michigan; I remember thinking deep down in my spirit; why would God annihilate billions upon billions of people because they were not saved. I was a good Methodist and I believed the preachers and what the Word of God said; so I got saved baptized in the Spirit and believed the Bible literally.
In my early twenties I got wrapped up in a religion that believed that if you didn’t believe the way they did you were going to hell. After a good solid year I did something different; I heard Father and not mother. You see in the Bible anything having to do with God is always masculine; the church is always feminine.
I want to debate this issue with who ever shall come. Please
I am unorthodox; liberal I am not. I am looking for a debate with brothers in the Lord who are seeking truth and have some good Bible foundations. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing; it is matter of rightly dividing God’s Word. I promise you I will use the Bible; I will use Greek and Hebrew; I do not agree with all the so called translators out there with certain words; but I will show proof in the Bible why.

If I am wrong show me; it will not be easy; it will be interesting.

 

[Lisa0315]

I would like to engage in this discussion as long as it stays friendly. I do believe in a literal hell. My first question to you is regarding the Book of Life, and the names that are blotted out. It states that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into hell. How do you respond to this?

Lisa

 

[GeorgeE]

The word hell is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. You can go to England today and hel your potatoes. Most translators of the Bible today do not even put the word hell in their Bibles because it is not in the language.

Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

Ge-hen-na (gi hen, g-) [[LL (Ec) < Gr Geenna, hell < Heb gey hinom, where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh were said to have sacrificed their sons to Moloch]] the valley of Hinnom (see below), near Jerusalem, where refuse was burned in Biblical times. In other words “The garbage heap” This word is used with believers

She-ol (eol) [[Heb < ? shaal , to dig]] Bible a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead
Search words "sheol" 62 results.
Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave

 

[Lisa0315]

The word hell is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. You can go to England today and hel your potatoes. Most translators of the Bible today do not even put the word hell in their Bibles because it is not in the language.

Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

Ge-hen-na (gi hen, g-) [[LL (Ec) < Gr Geenna, hell < Heb gey hinom, where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh were said to have sacrificed their sons to Moloch]] the valley of Hinnom (see below), near Jerusalem, where refuse was burned in Biblical times. In other words “The garbage heap” This word is used with believers

She-ol (eol) [[Heb < ? shaal , to dig]] Bible a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead
Search words "sheol" 62 results.
Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave

You didn't answer my question. What does it mean to say that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be in hell?

Lisa

 

[GeorgeE]

I would like to engage in this discussion as long as it stays friendly. I do believe in a literal hell. My first question to you is regarding the Book of Life, and the names that are blotted out. It states that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into hell. How do you respond to this?

Lisa

I need to set some foundations; just stick with me. This debate will get heated; there are a lot of hard religious walls out there as well as dogma; to many more important then the truth. The Bible has all the answers; but has been twisted and rearranged by so many translators who just will do anything to prove their bias.

 

[EchoPneuma]

George, you will find many here who agree with you wholeheartedly.....that's why we are down here in the basement of "unorthodoxy". To believe in a God of love, grace, justice and mercy who will not burn millions of souls for eternity is apparently very unsavory to the organized "church". It really doesn't matter how much scripture you have to support your belief....or how much Greek or Hebrew you show to be mistranslated.

Those who believe in eternal torment don't want to be confused with the facts. They have their 2 or 3 mistranslated scriptures that they cling to tenaciously and completely ignore the mountain of evidence that refutes the belief. It's been debated to death down here. Those who want to believe in eternal torment will continue to do so.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

 

[Soul Searcher]

I would like to engage in this discussion as long as it stays friendly. I do believe in a literal hell. My first question to you is regarding the Book of Life, and the names that are blotted out. It states that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into hell. How do you respond to this?

Lisa

Actually it states that anyone [refering to the dead] not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is never translated as hell in any version of the bible that I am aware of.

Is this not the same fire that Paul talks about when he says every man will be tried by fire, gain reward or suffer loss but be saved by fire?

 

[GeorgeE]

George, you will find many here who agree with you wholeheartedly.....that's why we are down here in the basement of "unorthodoxy". To believe in a God of love, grace, justice and mercy who will not burn millions of souls for eternity is apparently very unsavory to the organized "church". It really doesn't matter how much scripture you have to support your belief....or how much Greek or Hebrew you show to be mistranslated.

Those who believe in eternal torment don't want to be confused with the facts. They have their 2 or 3 mistranslated scriptures that they cling to tenaciously and completely ignore the mountain of evidence that refutes the belief. It's been debated to death down here. Those who want to believe in eternal torment will continue to do so.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

I aggree but it must be said

 

[GeorgeE]

From J Preston Eby

God’s Word is a hidden word and to find its secrets you got to dig beyond the letter that killeth. Take the Lake of Fire.

I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it.
The teaching concerning the lake of fire does not appear anywhere in Scripture except in the book of Revelation where it is spoken of in the following passages: Rev. 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10; 20:13-15 and 21:8. This last passage definitely states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts.

FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT.
In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND

 

[red77]

I would like to engage in this discussion as long as it stays friendly. I do believe in a literal hell. My first question to you is regarding the Book of Life, and the names that are blotted out. It states that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into hell. How do you respond to this?

Lisa

What do you believe hell to be? It also states in revelation that hell is cast into the lake of fire so do you believe in a literal lake of fire? Also it says that death is cast into the lake of fire along with hell so isnt this a big indication of symbolism being used? How would you explain this?

 

[GeorgeE]

What do you believe hell to be? It also states in revelation that hell is cast into the lake of fire so do you believe in a literal lake of fire? Also it says that death is cast into the lake of fire along with hell so isnt this a big indication of symbolism being used? How would you explain this?

Revelations: 1 : 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Signify to use signs and symbols; also lets not rule out types; shadows parables; mysteries and all these awesome way God speaks by His Spirit that are used all thought the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It is not the way I interpret it or the Baptist or Lutherans; how is the Bible interpreting these word? Most hell is what people have between there ears, be it religious, man made or self imposed. I believe the wicked will be punished; but not eternally ( I will get to the word eternal later; it is a Hugh subject).
Fire: In the Greek is the word &#8220;pur&#8217; which we now get our English word pure; purify, purge and purgatory.
Hebrews 12: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Daniel 3:21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Noticed God&#8217;s fire only burnt their bondages.
22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
When Jesus was Baptized in the River Jordon; He Got a dove. On the other hand when Christians were Baptized with the Spirit of truth they received cloven tongues of fire. You see Jesus is perfect; we are not; we need the fire for our change.
Isaiah: 48 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Fire melts spiritual principles until they are pure. Gold symbolic of divine life, silver, redemption; brass judgment etc.
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

I nee to go to work I will be back latter this evening.

 

[GeorgeE]

I just gave an awesome understanding of Lake of Fire; There is going to be much more.

This is a very big subject; Book of Life is a spiritual book that people who walk in the light names are written. A name is a nature a character an authority. God is changing our name or nature; like in Revelations a new song. The word song is the Greek word” Ode” it is a spontaneous overflow of melody and praise that finds an expression in song by spirit of inter prompting. New wine, new song, new day, renewed, new order, new covenant, new law written in your heart, new creation, new spiritual rder, all thing are made new. God is not new; He is not old; He is eternal; we must be always seeking the new revelation of the spirit in stead of mans warn or traditions of religion.

Who is dead? We are all dead in trustpasses and sin; only thought God’s word which encompasses the corn the wine and the oil will their be life. Corn; God’s Word; but a living Word; is not corn a plant that is alive. Wine; revelation of the Spirit; God’s Holy Spirit not mans religion is our guide. Oil the anointing; anti christ anti anointing very same thing.

Jesus is the way the truth and the light; we look for His anointing; it is out there; it is also with in you.
I got to go to work.

 

[Soul Searcher]

In regaurds to the book of life, One thing that puzzles me is that there is no mention that I am aware of of anyone actually being written into the book of life. There are references to those blotted out and those who will not be blotted out. No reference to being written into, no reference to being written back in after having been blotted out, no real indication as to when the blotting out occurs.

Is it possible that the book of life simply refers to those who are living?

Consider that in the OT it says the soul that sins will die, The soul who sins will be blotted out of the book. Could these both be referring to the same thing? Is each and every living human in the book from day one and cause themselves to be blotted out through sin?

If all have sinned and the soul that sins will be blotted out is it not safe to say that all who have lived are blotted out already?

Also worth noting when revelation speaks of those not found in the book of life it seems to be referring to the dead.

Thoughts?

As to the lake of fire, have you read the Lake of Fire by L. Ray Smith?

 

[MrJim]

Hey GeorgeE

It sounds like you are saying that the lake of fire is a kind of purgatory for the unregenerate?

 

[Lisa0315]

What do you believe hell to be? It also states in revelation that hell is cast into the lake of fire so do you believe in a literal lake of fire? Also it says that death is cast into the lake of fire along with hell so isnt this a big indication of symbolism being used? How would you explain this?

I do not define hell. It could be a literal burning lake of fire, or it could be an eternal separation from God, or it could be a fiery torment of the mind, or all of the above. My point is that regardless of WHAT hell is, I do believe that the Bible is clear that those who do not accept Christ will be tormented for eternity. I believe that it is a dangerous thing to teach that God is too kind and loving to REALLY send people to hell (insert definition).

I have been in these discussions before, and those who believe that a loving God could not possibly send ANYONE to hell (insert definition) also toss out scripture that does not fit their idea of God. For example, in the OT in which the Israelites are commanded to destroy men, women, and <gasp> children, they do not believe that is literal holy scripture, but manufactured by men to justify holy wars. The vengeful God of the OT does not seem to line up with the merciful God of the NT, and the only way that the two can be reconciled is to throw out any Bible verses that show the vengeful God. However, what we see in the NT is Part II of a three part saga. Part III will see the return of an uncompromising God of wrath and judgement as well as a merciful loving God. He is both, not one or the other.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

In regaurds to the book of life, One thing that puzzles me is that there is no mention that I am aware of of anyone actually being written into the book of life. There are references to those blotted out and those who will not be blotted out. No reference to being written into, no reference to being written back in after having been blotted out, no real indication as to when the blotting out occurs.

Is it possible that the book of life simply refers to those who are living?

Consider that in the OT it says the soul that sins will die, The soul who sins will be blotted out of the book. Could these both be referring to the same thing? Is each and every living human in the book from day one and cause themselves to be blotted out through sin?

If all have sinned and the soul that sins will be blotted out is it not safe to say that all who have lived are blotted out already?

Also worth noting when revelation speaks of those not found in the book of life it seems to be referring to the dead.

Thoughts?

As to the lake of fire, have you read the Lake of Fire by L. Ray Smith?

Those who will be found in the Book of Life according to Paul are fellow laborers in Christ

Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Those who will be found in the Book of Life according to Paul are fellow laborers in Christ

Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

I think you are reading a lot into that verse, a lot more than is actually there. There names are in the book, it does not say that only thier names are in the book, it does not say when they were added to the book, why they were added to the book or if they will be blotted out of the book. Also noteworthy is Paul did not say they will be found in the book but rather they are [present tense] in the book.

The OT says that the soul who sins will be blotted out of the book. One can only be blotted out if thier name is already there and I see no reason at all in any scripture to think that anyone is not in this book from day one only that they can and will be blotted out if they sin and again since all have sinned then all will be blotted out if these verses are literally true.

In the verse you povided isn't it safe to say that all those he was refering to were currently alive at the time it was wirtten? If the book of life refers to those who live then they would indeed be there if they were alive so this really doesn't tell us very much.

 

[Lisa0315]

I think you are reading a lot into that verse, a lot more than is actually there. There names are in the book, it does not say that only thier names are in the book, it does not say when they were added to the book, why they were added to the book or if they will be blotted out of the book. Also noteworthy is Paul did not say they will be found in the book but rather they are [present tense] in the book.

The OT says that the soul who sins will be blotted out of the book. One can only be blotted out if thier name is already there and I see no reason at all in any scripture to think that anyone is not in this book from day one only that they can and will be blotted out if they sin and again since all have sinned then all will be blotted out if these verses are literally true.

In the verse you povided isn't it safe to say that all those he was refering to were currently alive at the time it was wirtten? If the book of life refers to those who live then they would indeed be there if they were alive so this really doesn't tell us very much.

On its on, the verse does not tell us much. Combined with all the verses that mention the Book of Life, you get a more complete picture. Those who sin (everyone) will be blotted out. Yet, we know that those who sin and accept Christ are wrapped in a cloak of righteousness and the sin has been paid in full as if there is no sin. Those who sin and do not accept Christ will be blotted out of the Book of Life, and those whose names are not found within the Book of Life will be cast into hell...whatever hell is.

Question: Do you accept the Bible as a whole as a Holy and Inspired Word of God?

Lisa

Lisa

 

[EchoPneuma]

I do not define hell. It could be a literal burning lake of fire, or it could be an eternal separation from God, or it could be a fiery torment of the mind, or all of the above. My point is that regardless of WHAT hell is, I do believe that the Bible is clear that those who do not accept Christ will be tormented for eternity. I believe that it is a dangerous thing to teach that God is too kind and loving to REALLY send people to hell (insert definition).

I have been in these discussions before, and those who believe that a loving God could not possibly send ANYONE to hell (insert definition) also toss out scripture that does not fit their idea of God. For example, in the OT in which the Israelites are commanded to destroy men, women, and <gasp> children, they do not believe that is literal holy scripture, but manufactured by men to justify holy wars. The vengeful God of the OT does not seem to line up with the merciful God of the NT, and the only way that the two can be reconciled is to throw out any Bible verses that show the vengeful God. However, what we see in the NT is Part II of a three part saga. Part III will see the return of an uncompromising God of wrath and judgement as well as a merciful loving God. He is both, not one or the other.

Lisa

The bottom line is....a God who reveals Himself as unconditional "love"....(ie God IS love), then tells us that love "keeps no record of wrongs", and who tells us that He DELIGHTS in showing mercy and that His mercy endures FOREVER, and who says that He is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance, and who is sovereign to accomplish His will, WOULD NOT, I repeat, WOULD NOT burn and torture anyone for eternity.

Won't happen. If it did, His love would be conditional upon someone having faith, His mercy would not endure forever but would stop at some point, and He would be keeping a record of their wrongs for eternity, thereby saying that He is NOT love because "love keeps no record of wrongs"...and it would make Him unable to accomplish His will that none should perish thereby making Him less than sovereign.

WON'T HAPPEN.

If you believe in the God of the bible as revealed, then you can't possibly believe in eternal torment. If you believe in the "god" that the modern day church has fabricated, then you can.

 

[Soul Searcher]

On its on, the verse does not tell us much. Combined with all the verses that mention the Book of Life, you get a more complete picture. Those who sin (everyone) will be blotted out. Yet, we know that those who sin and accept Christ are wrapped in a cloak of righteousness and the sin has been paid in full as if there is no sin. Those who sin and do not accept Christ will be blotted out of the Book of Life, and those whose names are not found within the Book of Life will be cast into hell...whatever hell is.

The bible does not say those not in the book of life will be cast into hell... It does say that hell will give up its dead and those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, clearly the lake of fire and hell are two totally different things.

As for acceptance of Christ being a free pass from sin I totally disagree with that understanding of scripture. The book clearly says that "Every Man" will be judged by what they have done not by what they believe.

Question: Do you accept the Bible as a whole as a Holy and Inspired Word of God?

No.. The bible tells us that Jesus is the word, not the book. It also tells us that "all scripture" is inspired by God [God Breathed] This does not mean the "kjv bible" It means all scripture which includes much that is not in our bible and perhaps not some of what actually is in our bible. Keep in mind when Paul said this he most likely did not consider anything he wrote as scripture nor was the other books in the NT even written yet to the best of our knowledge and the bible compliation was hundreds of years later.

I find the phrase God breathed kind of ironic in that Man was made a living soul by the breath of God and man wrote, edited, translated and compiled the bible. In a sense it was created by the breath of God, that breath being within all mankind.